AIBU to feel confused and old about transgender issues.

[confusedandold]

I was born in 1976 so 43 years old. During school, I don't recall any children in my school having issues with their gender. There may have been some but none that I was away of. I had no experience of transgender people apart from a vague memory of seeing a man in women clothing walking up the road and being fascinated by it.

Transgender issues have never been at the forefront of my mind. I feel that I'm very accepting of other people's life choices and that people have a right to be happy in their lives whatever that means for them.

Lately, I feel completely confused by transgender issues. It has never been something that I'd given much thought to but I get completely an utterly confused by the terminology. Non-binary, cisgender etc this is all wording that I had never encountered before. Everyone seems to be talking about trans right and gender issues and I don't understand where this has suddenly come from. Is it that more people have issues around their gender? Is it fashionable to be gender-neutral? Is it just that people now feel more comfortable in expressing how they feel inside? Is there greater acceptance? I'm returning to the UK after 10 years abroad and this is a topic that was never really discussed when I left.

I guess I'm asking because I don't want to inadvertently offend anyone by using incorrect terminology. As shocking as this may sound but when I was at school mixed-race people were referred to as 'half-caste', even mixed-race people in my school referred to themselves in this way, now this is a huge no-no. Times change, language changes and it is so easy to offend while having no intention whatsoever of doing so.

@GreytExpectations

I told you that you were disablist at the time and how angry I was that you were coopting us to shut people's concerns about disabled people's rights at the time and you ignored it.

I ignored it because I wasn't being disablist and you were getting wound up. Not sure if you know this but you don't really get to control people and their opinions.

Oh, so you do know that it wasn't advance search then?

So why did you say it was? Adding a little bit of Ad Hominem in, perhaps?

And yes, of course I am getting wound up. You know what it is called when you focus on the tone of someone who thinks her marginalised group is being exploited and manipulated and use it to dismiss the concern? Tone-policing.

But you could say that about anyone.

What do you mean by this?
It was pointed out on the thread and you refused to address it, as I recall.

Also, I use gender because that's what it is. It isn't an 'inner identity' to me so much as who I am. My gender is non-binary and fluid, I dislike being called the pronouns and words relating to my gender at birth

Thanks for taking the time to try to explain this, Loki, but I feel I'm still no further forward in understanding what 'non-binary' is.

In the paragraph I've quoted, I think you mean your sex at birth, since none of us have a 'gender at birth'. So your use of sex and gender seems a bit muddled.

We all have a sex, either male or female. This simply describes what we are, rather than who we are. There is no third sex. So I assume 'non-binary' applies to gender, not sex, which is why I always assumed it to be shorthand for gender non-conforming, but now you tell us that's not what it is.

There's no specific reason for being non-binary which is why I assume a lot of people hate it because they can't put it into a box - it isn't a box.

Once again, you've said what non-binary isn't , but not what it is. I don't 'hate' it, I just don't understand it. Why do you need to describe yourself like this when so many people don't understand what it is? I have yet to see an explanation from someone who describes themself as non-binary (or from anyone else) which I understand.

@bishopgiggles

Telling disabled people they are not experiencing disablism is... hm, can't think of a word for it

It's just lovely, isn't it? But vair typical.

I have children. They are lovely and their existence is valid. They are definitely on the autistic spectrum and I think they are perfect just the way they are. I'm glad I got the chance to find out whether developing my own internal sense of peace was possible.

I'm one of the few people on Mumsnet that supports trans rights
Lots of us agree that Trans people shoulud have the same rights as anybody else
but they should not have more rights than anybody else.

Being pro the rights of Women and Children does not make me anti trans

in the same way as being pro gay marriage does not make me anti heterosexual marriage

Nobody like being shut down with the term "offensive"

No they don't, especially when they have valid concerns about the safety of women and girls.

Especially when, if anything, I'm one of the few people who advocate for Trans rights

Do you think that actually matters if wokoharem declare you should be "cancelled" because you said something they deem transphobic?

What do you mean by this?
It was pointed out on the thread and you refused to address it, as I recall.

I didn't address it because I didn't agree with it. I was the only one on that thread showing any kind of positivity about transpeople so I got piled on, of course people were going to twist my words. Maybe you should stop trying to derail this thread by picking a fight, not really in the mumsnet spirit.

@ListeningQuietly

I'm one of the few people on Mumsnet that supports trans rights Lots of us agree that Trans people shoulud have the same rights as anybody else but they should not have more rights than anybody else.

Being pro the rights of Women and Children does not make me anti trans

in the same way as being pro gay marriage does not make me anti heterosexual marriage

Except myself and others on here have been told if we support trans rights than we are anti women. So clearly there is an issue on Mumsnet with transphobia

You need to calm down PotholeParadise you are derailing the thread by trying to pick a fight and drag other threads into this one. I'm sorry if you didn't like my opinion

Except myself and others on here have been told if we support trans rights than we are anti women
I guess that depends whether you think Trans people should have more rights than other people ....
do you?

@GreytExpectations

You need to calm down PotholeParadise you are derailing the thread by trying to pick a fight and drag other threads into this one. I'm sorry if you didn't like my opinion

I'm glad that you're sorry I don't like you trying to shut down concerns about the sterilisation of a generation of young autistic people. It means such a lot that you're sorry I don't like it when people unthinkingly support something that looks like eugenics and call the very people who raise concerns 'disablist'.

Ah ok, so it's ok to be transphobic as long as the person saying it doesn't think it's transphobic. Or disablist. I'm assuming racist, classist, homophobic too?

You'll fall foul of the talk guidelines with that belief, Greyt, but it's clear we disagree on this so I'll move on and note that your posts come from a place of designating yourself as being the gatekeeper of what's offensive or not.

Now you see why moaning about the tiny chance of being assaulted by a trans person in a toilet is ridiculous?

But that is not the issue most people are concerned about. I agree, the chances of being assaulted by a trans person in a toilet is tiny. The chances of a woman being assaulted by a man who has gained access to a space which used to be "women only" but is no longer "women only" because Trans women want access, and in response to this businesses have made all the spaces "unisex" is much higher. The issue isn't the trans woman in the toilet. It is the further reaching implications of this change.

thankfully people like you are being called out and cancelled

Cancelled. Right. That means "We don't like what you say, so we are going to pretend you don't exist" doesn't it? The internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "la la la" whenever you hear an argument you are unable to accept but also unable to refute...

I don't like you trying to shut down concerns about the sterilisation of a generation of young autistic people.
For the millionth time, stop exaggerating.

Conflation like that are not helpful as even with the most extreme interventions of a few pressure groups, that is just not happening

its not helpful to the question the OP asked

nor does it clarify many of the other questions asked
such as
what is binary
and
how is pro women, anti trans
and more

So another angle on feeling you have a none-binary gender identity .

As a child, i suffered a lot, cutting a long story short, I didn't see myself as a girl, I was bullied for likeing " boys things" like being good at maths and I certainly didn't like how my body changed, so clearly something was wrong somewhere. For many years I would call myself a boys name, write stories about me...as a boy, you get the idea.

Many years later, I grew up, my sex is just that, and it has nothing to say about who I am, and on that basis I can accept that I am female, and gender is just a box that narrow minded people use. I made my way in a male dominated profession and people around me treat me as me.

But then , put me in a position where gender is considered important to someone, where you are asked what your gender is, when people start talking gender identity , and I regress. The feelings that I put aside come back in waves.

It is important to me to be able to say that my gender identity isn't female/feminine/woman. Because people hurt me a lot because I didn't fit, I have put up with a lot in my life because I am none conformant , I have had to fight for my place in the world outside of those boxes, no way am I going to walk back into one. But I can no longer think of myself as Male, I have experienced many different things and no one looking at me would say Male.

Just because none binary covers most people does not make it valueless, it allows you to express a rejection of the binary gender norms that are still expected by many in society.

A world with most people none binary is a world where gender is slowly being smashed

ListeningQuietly

Thank you for the cake. I need it.

midgebabe that's precisely why many of the women on here are fighting against gender stereotypes and identity politics.

You (general you) don't have to "identify" as female, its just a biological state.

There shouldn't be any expectations on behaviour, likes, dislikes and so on based on your biological sex. Its only the TRAs who are pushing that line.

Exactly, @Pertella.

midgebabe
you are not non binary
you are individual

A high profile person who does not conform to lots and lots of old style stereotypes is Megan Rapinoe
but she is most definitely female and is unlikely to take kindly to transwomen taking the team places that women fight for

so I'll move on and note that your posts come from a place of designating yourself as being the gatekeeper of what's offensive or not.

Ironic because you are doing the exact same thing by claiming my posts are offensive...

I guess that depends whether you think Trans people should have more rights than other people ....
do you?

Not more, equal.

But when put in the case where I am asked what my identity is, it does push me back to feeling "wrong" , and strongly distressed because of this . It does make me want to alter my body ( which is logically stupid)

I blame the TRA community for how it makes me feel. I was coping perfectly well when I could live without gender. The emphasis on gender is hurtful. The notion that one can be born in the wrong body is basically saying there is something wrong with me. Which rationally I know is wrong. But I don't always react rationally.

But they will assume a gender identity for me, and I can't let them do that to me again

Ah ok, so it's ok to be transphobic as long as the person saying it doesn't think it's transphobic. Or disablist. I'm assuming racist, classist, homophobic too?

Of course it's not OK to be any of those things. I have also not made any comments that fall into the above categories but feel free to keep trying to "call me out"

Greyt
not more, equal
So men not "identifying as women"

• go to men's prisons
• stay out of women's spaces religious, sanitary, education, safety
• do men's sport
• compete against men in business and commerce

if "transmen" are happy to stick to that then there is no issue

if they want more than what other men and women have, there is an issue

Not more, equal.

So what rights do trans people currently not have enshrined in law, that everyone else does have?