To think this was school admission fraud ?

[Survivor12345]

We put our house on the market in 2015, knowing that a key selling point was its proximity (walking distance) to the most sought-after primary school in our area, and the fact that the secondary school in our town was the #1 choice for our part of the county (Hertfordshire).

Within 48 hours we had four full asking price offers, all from families with school-age children, as expected.

To avoid a chain, we chose the buyers who claimed to be 'living in rented accommodation' in another town whose two children, then aged approx. 7 and 5, attended the primary school near us.

We did wonder how come they had got in there, but didn't question it too much, concluding that it was not our business. They gushed over our house and claimed that they would be moving straight in when we moved out, were delighted to be sure of the secondary school places etc. etc.

They turned out to have lied about being 'in rented accommodation'; in fact, they owned the house they lived in in the other town, but 'Didn't like the schools there, they are too rough'.

Whatever, after discovering that they'd lied we were halfway through the sales process so had little choice but to continue with them, even though they ducked and dived trying to claim nonsense after their survey etc. We gave them one week to complete after their extortion attempts which they complied with, as they clearly didn't want to lose the house.

So we moved out on completion - and they have never moved into the place !

OK I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS, NEVERTHELESS, LYING IS LYING IS FRAUD AS I UNDERSTAND IT WHEN IT COMES TO SCHOOL PLACES ?

Since buying our former house, they have continued to live in their house in the other town and send their children to the town's two highly over-subscribed schools, thus, in our view, depriving two children from our town of two places at good schools near their genuine homes.

They have rented our former house out and continue to own it.

What I would like to know is, does this amount to school place application fraud?

We knew they were buying our house for its proximity to these good schools, but believed them when they said that they were going to move into it and live there.

We don't care what they do, but do believe that it's wrong to game the system like this. Our children are grown, and we're not familiar with the requirements for school applications.

AIBU to ask anyone else who has recent knowledge to tell me whether what they have done is just sharp practice, or is it downright unlawful, in which case, how do I report them?

If they rented it to people with children, those children would have got onto the secondary school, not the people who bought your house.

Unless they rented it to people without secondary school age kids, and carried on paying the council tax themselves.

@BigBadVoodooHat

They were not at the school. They attended a local primary and purchased a house to ensure a place in the senior school.

Where does the OP say that they purchased the house to ensure a place in the senior school?

because of the ages of the children in 2015 - presumably her old address was a more secure address in terms of admission criteria

I may have misunderstood but if their children attended the 'out of catchment for their residence' primary school and you are querying whether their use of the ownership but never residence of your former house to secure a place at the relevant secondary school was fraud then I suspect it may be. If this was the case, the only way to be sure would be to see the application form to see what address they used but if they represented that they lived in your home on that application but it was never their residence then they may well have committed a misrepresentation (I'd need to check whether it falls within any use of 'fraud') and deprived two local children of a place.

If their DC attend the secondary now then I'm unaware of a basis for progression from an out of catchment primary to an over-subscribed out of catchment secondary based on having attended a 'feeder' primary.

You'll be able to tell which PPs have direct experience of the relevant LA policies and Regulations and which have just decided that this isn't anything to do with you.

But 7 is miles from secondary school age. So maybe they will move in closer to the time?

I can not see any certain fraud anywhere in this thread.
Op might know more than she has told us.....but I don't think any of us can conclude with certainty there has been school admissions fraud.

The thread isn't really about this topic is it!

@Stannisbaratheonsboxofmatchest. hey were 7 in 2015 so presumably are now at secondary school and presumably the OP knows they still don't live in her old house

It's only admissions fraud if they lied on their children's primary school applications; perhaps they had a local address when their children started primary school and then moved away. That ship has clearly sailed.

But they will need a local address for secondary school applications for both children. they'll have to move into the house and live there for the address to 'count' when that time comes. In the meantime, it doesn't matter where they live.

Zilla1 thanks for your sensible and sane post.

yep, still none of your business.

What a strange thing to be bothered about

We had neighbors move in to a rented home across the street from us. We also live in a heavily over subscribed catchment area for both primary and secondary and we live near the best rated grammar in the county.
Anyway, as we are quite a small community, we said hello when they were moving in, they didn't bring a lot with them so we offered a cup of tea and their boys were similar age to my two DCs.
I asked where they had moved from and they said oh, we moved from X part of the big town next to us, quite a distance.

Anyway, after a few months we got to know them well, youngest DS of theirs and our DS got to be quite pally, we did notice that the DH didn't appear to live with them but such is life and we wondered if that was why they had moved.
Oh no, it was because she wanted both the boys to go to secondary here. Apparently they had used his parents address and council tax proof to an address on the next street to get them into one of the over subbed primaries years before, but parents had now moved so they were screwed.
Was pretty shocked at the ruse but not my business.
Unfortunately for them, local busybody who the wife had also become friendly with also got told and reported the deception (quite possibly has the biggest gob ever, us locals know never ever to tell her anything or the entire village will know within a matter of hours).
They did get their offer withdrawn and were threatened with a fine. They moved away again within a few weeks, midnight the husband turned up and off they went, leaving the place without a word to the landlord.

I'd definitely report OP. If it comes to nothing then it's either because it wasn't an issue or the policy isn't as black and white. But at least you flag the issue.

I live in an area where there is significant demand for school places and I have seen people not get a place for their child as a result of other people using a relative's address or renting a property for the year but not living in it. Those saying it isn't a big deal, if you spent your hard earned money on a house, choosing the area for its amenities including the school and then you don't get a place because your neighbours grandchildren who live somewhere else did, how would you feel?

In one local school near us, every household gets a visit from the principal before admission. It's ridiculous that he's had to resort to this but there you are.

@Birkenshock

Report them to Herts Council OP. Just email the generic school admissions email.

You need to be LIVING at an address for schools admissions purposes, not just own it. Pretty sure Herts even clarify in their admission rules that if you own two properties, you can only use the "main" residence you live in for admissions purposes, and anything else is fraud

@Birkenshock

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the house sale happened five years ago.

Because if in 2015 the children were 7 and 5 they are now 12 and 10
Now it’s relevant to secondary school.
It’s not fair to take places from children who live in the catchment area.

How do you know that their children attend/have applied for the sought after secondary school anyway?

interestingly, the father asked me for a copy of the Council Tax bill when they made the offer. Suspicious

No it's a standard enquiry so you know how much it is.

Buying a house isn't fraud.

Survivor, you're welcome. I can see why this would 'grate' with you. I wasn't sure how readable my post would be given it seems somewhat complicated circumstances and I only had time to skim your OP.

Hope you're happy in your new home.

Could be all above board.
5 years ago proof of residency was needed. Home visits were also required. They could have lived locally but had to move out.

If you had a house close to the primary school, would you purposely live further away and have the daily school run? The after school/weekend/holiday playing with your mates from school etc.

Anyone I've ever met over the years who have done this long distance ones, are so bloody relieved after several months and they get local places.

Thanks for your post StepawayfromtheBiscuittin .

I feel exactly the same as you.

I don't think excuses should be made for clambering over other children.

It's not fraud. The DCs were already attending the local school.
When you made chit chat with them, you assumed it was about school catchments and they didn't dissuade you but that doesn't mean they bought the house for the catchment. When we bought our current home, the seller thought we were moving for the catchment. We agreed the local schools were great but we weren't moving to get into catchment. Our DCs go to an independent school in the next city. My point is that sellers often make assumptions and often buyers don't correct them.
I cannot imagine being so invested in what happened in a house after I'd sold it. Do you struggle with anxiety OP ? because you are overly invested in this.

Those saying it isn't a big deal, if you spent your hard earned money on a house, choosing the area for its amenities including the school and then you don't get a place because your neighbours grandchildren who live somewhere else did, how would you feel?
This.

If they want to genuinely live in catchment for the secondary school then they need to LIVE in the admission area, not buy a house to gain admission by deception. If they are using a house they don't live in to gain admission to the secondary then it's fraudulent and deprives other eligible children of their place.

Think about how many threads there are at school offer times where parents are seeking to appeal the school they've been allocated for DC. Some of their DC may have missed out because others have been dishonest.

Those with money and resources have always been able to buy houses close to certain schools, but moving for schools is honest and that's life. No child should be missing out on a school place because people have been applying with their relative's address, a rental address, or any other address that they don't live at.

Well Op, if you decide to report it, I hope you are able to do so more clearly than you have here.

You seem furious with anyone who asks for more information or questions what you are suggesting, but pleased with anyone who simply tells you to report it. Why ask if you are already totally clear in your mind?

This kind of scenario has potential for fraud. However, many cases which present like this are not fraudulent at all. Sometimes people know part of a story and piece 2 and 2 together to make 5. I maintain that you report people if you are pretty certain about their crime. Simply knowing people have let a property out and have children of a certain age isn't enough evidence for me to reach that conclusion. If Op also knew for sure that these kids were now at the secondary or had used her old address to apply but never lived there....that would be different. But Op has never said she knows these things have happened.

It's the lack of specific knowledge along with wanting to report which makes people see Op as a potential busybody. But perhaps that is intentional in this thread as Op is keen to create a reaction.

They sound dishonest OP but I would try to let it go. Is this something you really want get dragged into?

You made the decision to sell to them in good faith thinking they would live there.

The 100% watertight option would have been to sell to people living in the area but this would have made things riskier for you.

The system will expose them one way or another, especially if this is how they behave in other aspects of life as well to get what they want.

Can you say what the possible fraud is? It sounds odd but not fraud from what you’ve said. Do you think they used your address for secondary applications?

interestingly, the father asked me for a copy of the Council Tax bill when they made the offer. Suspicious

Your reasoning makes no sense along with the whole thread, he wouldn’t have needed it for secondary then because the DC were too young. Plus it would have your name on it as a pp said.

Why do you not answer anyone's questions and only respond to pp who agree with you?

I call BS, I think a pair of hairy hands are trying to wind us up.

You can't know they definitely made a fraudulent application without knowing the ins and outs of their business (as PPs say, adoption, EHCP, siblings, etc) or even whether they used that address.

But there's nothing to stop you notifying the LEA/school(s) (depending on who deals with admissions) of the fact you believe they never moved into that house if you think it's dodgy.

It's weird as schools are usually very strict on checking addresses for admissions nowadays, especially for highly oversubscribed schools, but I guess some people do slip through the net.