To think this was school admission fraud ?

[Survivor12345]

We put our house on the market in 2015, knowing that a key selling point was its proximity (walking distance) to the most sought-after primary school in our area, and the fact that the secondary school in our town was the #1 choice for our part of the county (Hertfordshire).

Within 48 hours we had four full asking price offers, all from families with school-age children, as expected.

To avoid a chain, we chose the buyers who claimed to be 'living in rented accommodation' in another town whose two children, then aged approx. 7 and 5, attended the primary school near us.

We did wonder how come they had got in there, but didn't question it too much, concluding that it was not our business. They gushed over our house and claimed that they would be moving straight in when we moved out, were delighted to be sure of the secondary school places etc. etc.

They turned out to have lied about being 'in rented accommodation'; in fact, they owned the house they lived in in the other town, but 'Didn't like the schools there, they are too rough'.

Whatever, after discovering that they'd lied we were halfway through the sales process so had little choice but to continue with them, even though they ducked and dived trying to claim nonsense after their survey etc. We gave them one week to complete after their extortion attempts which they complied with, as they clearly didn't want to lose the house.

So we moved out on completion - and they have never moved into the place !

OK I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS, NEVERTHELESS, LYING IS LYING IS FRAUD AS I UNDERSTAND IT WHEN IT COMES TO SCHOOL PLACES ?

Since buying our former house, they have continued to live in their house in the other town and send their children to the town's two highly over-subscribed schools, thus, in our view, depriving two children from our town of two places at good schools near their genuine homes.

They have rented our former house out and continue to own it.

What I would like to know is, does this amount to school place application fraud?

We knew they were buying our house for its proximity to these good schools, but believed them when they said that they were going to move into it and live there.

We don't care what they do, but do believe that it's wrong to game the system like this. Our children are grown, and we're not familiar with the requirements for school applications.

AIBU to ask anyone else who has recent knowledge to tell me whether what they have done is just sharp practice, or is it downright unlawful, in which case, how do I report them?

Not all school application criteria is based on catchment area and address. Meaning that, in many schools, there are children who will be accepted to the school ahead of those in catchment.

Sorry, meant parameters of school catchment change annually!

fraud is fraud and two deserving children who live in that town are now going to lose places at the school there to two whose parents have lied

How have they taken the places of 2 other children if they already attended the school?

I don't understand who you think they've defrauded - the secondary school?

It’s taken you 5 years to consider whether to report it, why bother now?

Yes it's fraud. Report them.

I suspect they got their kids into primary schools fraudulently as well. Yes it is fraud..they weren't living there. Just someone with money playing the system. But it was 5 years ago. What can become now? Out of interest is this Watford?

Yes it’s sneaky and dishonest, however, after having 2 dc who have had to go to an ‘awful’ secondary school as they were out of the catchment area for the ‘decent’ school in our area I don’t really blame them. My dc’s education plummeted whilst at secondary school and only improved after they went to college. If all schools were of a decent/similar standard people wouldn’t have to find loopholes!

@IveSeenThings

Ilovemydog- that's why a lot of people move isn't it?

Of course - but most people actually live in the house. It's incredible that someone could afford to buy a house for it to stay empty?

Five years ago?! Op, there are some things in life worth carrying through - this is not one of them...

I am 100% with you Survivor. My daughter was the victim of families lying ,buying flats right next to our local girls grammar school . My daughter passed her 11+ and we lived two miles away in a village. All the girls from her primary school who passed and chose this school got in apart from my daughter. We were 100 metres out of the catchment area because we were pushed out by the fraudulent,lying parents of other girls . We appealed and she still wasn’t offered a place and 10 places were offered to others who actually lived in other towns !! The school was absolutely furious and we went to the ombudsman with evidence to prove the parents were lying. Turns out the appeal panel had taken backhanders from a couple of the parents and all the others had lied . This happened 15 years ago and I still feel so bitter about the stress we as a family went through and most importantly my daughter. Basically at the age of 11 she was exposed to the selfishness and underhand behaviour of adults . So I would definitely report this family to the LEA !

Sounds petty OP. Like your bored and have nothing better to do.

It is odd to be worried about this 5 years after the event....which makes me think OP knows more than she is saying or there is a reason why this has come up again.

Fraud could be involved. The buyers might have used the address to get a secondary place whilst not living there. It is fraud to claim you live in one place when you live elsewhere. You cannot own 2 houses and use both or switch between them in terms of which issued for admission purposes. If they never moved in but used the address it would be fraud as other children who actually lived closer to the school (rather than having parents who owned a house closer but did not actually live closer) could lose out on a place. It would be very difficult to know this.

Fraud could also happen if the buyer used the address to gain a secondary school place whilst never living there, plus then let the property and other people used the address to gain a secondary place. In all liklihood the admissions couldn't have been in the same year. Of course, in reality, purchased or rented properties are often used over time for multiple children to gain entry to school as different children or families live in them at different times and children join schools at different times.

Personally, I think the right time for these qualms of conscience was at the time you were selling. If you'd had doubts about if they were renters before/buying for school places but not actually moving, then was the time to raise it. However, of course that was inconvenient for you because it might have jeopardised your sale. Are you now feeling a bit bad about having kept quiet back then? If so, I think the moment has passed. Unless you have more information you aren't sharing here, with relates to the family who bought the house or to other families in the house, 5 years on is too late to really raise what you have told us and what you have to,d us isn't evidence of fraud, as actually you do t even seem to know if an application to the secondary was made or the children are going there.

Do bear in mind, that people can buy/sell/rent in fairly quick succession and you might not always know what is going on.

To complain about fraud, I would want to have a pretty definitive idea it was going on right now. If not, I would be staying out of it. I think you had your chance, but it was years ago now.

OP, ignore the other posters - email Herts school admissions.

They even say on their website "If a school place was allocated to an older child using fraudulent information, we won't consider an application under the sibling rule for any children applying from that family."

So if the older child got a secondary place fraudulently because they used your address but weren't actually living there, the younger child won't get a place now.

@Survivor12345

Thanks to all for your replies.

To clarify, yes, their children were already in the primary school right near our former home, somehow, despite their living (where they still do) in another town.

crikeycrumbsblimey interestingly, the father asked me for a copy of the Council Tax bill when they made the offer. Suspicious ?

No, our buyers wanted to see the council tax bill to see what category it was rated as.

But what would she be reporting?

“Some people bought my house five years ago and they have children who were already at Excellent School Before this purchase and they don’t live in my former house

Where is the fraud?

So, if entry to the school is so competitive, I'm assuming because it has a better reputation/results. The parents want the best for their children and from your post you are implying where they live is poorer and rougher than the location of your house. Who knows the reasons they ultimately decided not to move to the house but you would jeopardise the education of children who have done nothing, when you have no idea what has happened? Anyway, if they already attended the school I don't see any wrong doing anyway.

Have you really kept tabs on them for 5 years?!
I agree that it looks as though they may have made fraudulent applications. But equally, they may have applied to secondary under a different criteria to distance.
As previous posters have said, Herts CC are pretty good at clamping down on fraudulent applications.
I think it's time to let this go OP
is it SW Herts?

Out of interest is this Watford?
I was thinking, was it Potters Bar?

FFS - the kids were there before they bought your house!!

You sound like you need a hobby.

Grandmi your post has convinced me to follow other posters' advice and report. It is entirely wrong that people work a system and, as you say, there will always be other children who lose out because of that.

Littlegreymen no, not Watford. A lovely small town beginning with B.

Viviennemary I am reporting them.

Some of the responses on this thread make me very glad that my children are grown, the level of selfishness is incredible and has increased since mine were small. Very sad for honest people.

@WinterIsGone

Out of interest is this Watford? I was thinking, was it Potters Bar?

Lol...parents in Watford don't care what they do to get their kids into particular schools!

Op, do you think a place was gained a while ago for an older sibling based on the address with no one living there, and since then, they have been getting other children in under the sibling rule?

You can email Herts, but I wonder if they will be interested in fraud which might have happened 5 years ago or even 2 or 3 years ago. I'm sure there is a point behind which they simply won't investigate or fraud will be too difficult for them to prove.

I guess if the family in question always had both houses and always paid council tax on both, it would be very questionable....the equivalent of renting in one place for a school,place whilst still living elsewhere. Lots of councils want to see that an applicant's family only has 1 property with council tax payable within commutable distance to the school, or alarm bells are rung.

It is unusual for people to go so far as to purchase another property and then leave it empty for school application purposes. Renting another property, with the expectation to live there very short term before returning to the owned property within commutable distance but outside catchment area is far more common. Here the 2 council taxes can be checked.

Op, in which school admissions year do you think fraud has happened? Do you feel fairly sure it has and on what basis? Or is this just something you think looks odd, but have no more evidence for?

I think they should be reported. If they've done nothing wrong no action will be taken.

Why is the fraud OP? Can you please answer?
They already attended the school??