A little more understanding to those not wearing masks THREAD TWO

[Fuckinellitsme]

Following on from the first thread here

Thank you to all the lovely posters who have shared their experiences on the first thread. It's been incredibly useful in understanding why some people are exempt from wearing a mask on transport, in shops and so on. Particularly in terms of learning about health conditions that aren't widely known, and also the psychological reasons for exemption. Some incredibly brave posters on that thread for whom I am full of admiration.

For those who need them exemption lanyards are available here

Sunflower lanyards can also be picked up for free at several large supermarkets, including Sainsbury's and Asda.

If anyone feels they want/are able to share their reasons for exemption, please do - it may help others to understand why many people can't wear masks, and also (if the last thread is anything to go by) is useful for educating the rest of us on conditions we're not familiar with.

Stay safe all 💐

@BamboozledandBefuddled I’ve PMed you.

@ContentiousOne

With respect and care, I've explicitly accepted that Itsnotjustabouyou falls into the category of cannot mask.

If it were me, and a thread saying those who can should, and those who can't don't have to, was making me feel guilty, I'd take that to therapy. That's not a snide comment. You're hurting. But the idea that those who can, should, acknowledging a minority cannot, isn't extreme or uncaring.

Wow!! People with MH issues should get therapy. Who would ever have though of that? We should all be getting right on it first thing this morning - it's clearly our own selfish, bloody-mindedness that's stopping us - there couldn't possibly be any other reason.

FFS, have I missed the bit that says Covid erodes intelligence?

That's not what I said.

I said if Mumsnet threads are resulting in intense feelings of guilt, that's a therapy problem.

I did not say people with trauma responses should go to therapy to unlearn them in order to mask.

My DD got out of her 4th psych ward stay a few weeks ago; trust me, I don't need a lecture on mental health.

I knew there would be people who would say a visor isnt good enough. Vindicated!!!

The thing is, @HeIenaDove, that what "people" think isn't really relevant. The Scottish government say visors are OK. The UK government advice implies that you need a cloth covering which "fits comfortably but securely against the side of the face" and which is "secured to the head with ties or ear loops" - but is really vague about what appropriate face coverings are as they don't want everyone rushing out to buy medical grade masks. (And of course, the advice is assuming that everyone wears masks properly, which they don't).

People who have a condition which exempts them from wearing masks don't have to wear anything. (And shouldn't feel they have to explain themselves either). But a visor is sort of a half way house which even if the protection isn't as good, it certainly protects the wearers against the "just wear a fucking mask" crowd who can't wait to have a pop.

If posters here think accepting that a minority of people cannot mask, but that some of us not in that minority can, with practice, is being a mask fanatic, you all have a funny idea of fanaticism.

Anyway, I'm done. Shared my story of feeling unable to, but finding with exposure I could. Hopefully that is encouraging to someone out there who would like to mask and feels it may be possible for them, but is doubtful about giving it a go.

For those for whom its impossible, like the OP, I hope you stay safe and healthy, and don't experience any harassment as you go about your daily business.

I know what you said. 18 months ago, online comments would have had no impact on me at all. That was before my life - and my mental health - was fucked in every possible way. That was in January 2019 - I didn't start getting help until October. Six months later, my world - and my mental health - was turned upside down again with this shit show. I had to stop getting help - no, phone/online counselling doesn't work for me. So for me, and many other posters, the whole issue of our MH in general, mask wearing, and how we respond to online intimidation is intrinsically linked. Being told 'we need help' is about as helpful being asked if we can wear a visor.

You are projecting.

Intense feelings due to pretty benign statements on social media are not mine to deal with, unless they are my intense emotions. In which case, I talk about them in therapy. Raging at strangers feels good in the moment, and pretty shit long term, in my experience anyway.

@ImOnTheWrongPlanet

Anyone else having trouble getting hold of a lanyard? Been waiting for 2 weeks now.

I picked up a sunflower one from my local Sainsbury's on Wednesday (it didn't deter the comments and tuts on the bus however!). Do you have a Sainsbury's near you? Asda give them out too and lots of other shops/supermarkets/public buildings etc and they should always be free, unless bought from Hidden Disabilities online.

I've since ordered one from the link in the op, the 'mask exempt' print on the lanyard is little more explicit than a sunflower I think! I ordered yesterday morning and it was despatched yesterday afternoon via RM 48 hour tracked so hopefully it should arrive quickly.

[quote HeIenaDove]**@Fuckinellitsme* @ItsNotJustAboutYou* Could Womens Aid put out a statement. Just to raise awareness.[/quote]
That's an excellent idea Helena. I shall email them, and Refuge, later. Perhaps other charities/organisations who advocate for people with some of the other issues raised here could put out a tweet or similar, too. There definitely needs to be more awareness which may lead to greater tolerance. Given we're probably going to mandated to wear masks for many months this definitely needs addressing.

Also re your other message - well done Italy. If they can do it I see no reason why we can't, but given the shower in charge, it's hardly a surprise is it.

@ItsNotJustAboutYou I completely understand why you want your posts deleted. Thank you so much for having the courage to post in the first place, it's clear that in doing so you've already helped a lot of people on these threads and encouraged others to tell their stories - and raised an issue which many (including me) hadn't previously considered.

Please keep posting if you feel able to - your contributions on these threads have been so useful and insightful.

So...

To recap what I've said to Helena above, I think it might be appropriate to contact organisations such as Women's Aid (as she suggested) and the like re raising awareness of the issues many people have with wearing masks, and why somebody not wearing one might be exempt. And why questioning or judging them is so unhelpful and could be viewed as discriminatory (ditto not allowing them into shops etc). Basically raising awareness and asking them what they might be able to do to that end.

It's all very well to introduce mandatory mask wearing and we all know the benefits and we would would all like to wear one - god knows it'd be easier than fielding some of the comments on these threads, quite apart from the safety aspect! But there needs to be something in place which ensures that nobody will have to tell a court the details of their exemption/face prosecution for not paying a fine (which seems to be unlikely, but is certainly possible as the law currently stands) or get a fine in the first place. It's astonishing that there is no formal appeals process as there is with, say, a parking ticket as mentioned above. Yes these laws had to be rushed though - but they'll be with us for a long time, so this needs to be addressed. Perhaps letters to MPs might be an idea? Maybe a template letter that we could email to them?

Thank you again to everyone posting, I hope you're all fine and dandy this morning 💙

*I no longer experience mask distress; when exposure therapy works, it works!

It's not appropriate for some people, and for someone like the OP, it's pointless. She has pain, not a phobia.*

I think that's the problem. It works for some people but not for others. I've tried various masks because I hate another reminder of my useless worthlessness but instead of finding it easier, it's intensified my distress. Yes, of course that's a therapy situation but according to my psychiatrist I'm not in a fit state for therapy at the moment and besides I'm not willing to discuss my issues at home via zoom because of my kids so even if we paid for it, it's not likely to be much use. So you end up stuck. These threads are absolutely a form of self harm for me. Again not healthy but again no quick fix because it's as addictive as other forms of hurting myself. Not going anywhere which requires a mask and hating myself that little bit more with very passing day seems the only option.

The other thread has been closed so I wanted to respond to @Floatyboat who made the last post there, in which she said that she doubted that there are millions of people who might be exempt.

There are 13.9 million disabled people in the UK. Of course not all of them will have disabilities which mean they can't wear a mask, but a good proportion will. Then there are health conditions which do not count as disabilities but are debilitating nonetheless, and can be triggered by mask wearing - TN would come under that umbrella, and 10 in 100,000 people in the UK have that (again, as we've seen on this thread some are comfortable in a mask but most are not). And on top of that there are those with psychological/MH issues who cannot wear a mask - there's no way of calculating those numbers, but as a rough guide 3 in 100 people will suffer from PTSD at some point in their lives (again not all those with PTSD will need to be exempt, this is just to give you an idea of how common it is). Millions of people are survivors of sexual violence.

So yes. There will be many millions of people who will be exempt. I'm afraid your scepticism is irrelevant. Listen to what people are telling you and show some empathy - these are real people telling you their reasons for exemption, not a hunch of yours based on guesswork.

I no longer experience mask distress; when exposure therapy works, it works!

I think the thing to remember here is that everyone's different. Two people with exactly the same disability may experience it differently, for example. It's brilliant that you've made such progress - but for others this may not be possible.

Here we have people not wearing masks slated as 'rule dodgers'. I know exempt people who have had to resort to buying them from eBay because they're unavailable elsewhere and they're scared of what might happen if they go out without a clear symbol of their exemption. The eBay seller is clearly profiteering (much like the ones who sold hand sanitizer for £50 a bottle at the start of the pandemic) but there's no proof that those buying the lanyards are doing so because they're 'rule dodgers'.

Basically what this article suggests is that if you see someone wearing a lanyard, there's a good chance they're a pisstaker.

www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/invisible-disability-cards-soar-price-18609555

I posted on the last thread but have name changed as I am going to talk about a very rare genetic disorder that I also have, which could out me.

To caveat, I am unable to wear a mask due to other conditions but as epidermolysis bullosa is so rare and in some cases could make wearing a mask impossible, this thread seemed a good place to raise some awareness.

Epidermolysis bullosa is a rare condition, affecting around 5,000 people in the UK. About 70% of EB patients have EB Simplex which is the mildest form of the condition, this is what my father, my uncle, my late grandmother and I have/had.

EB causes fragile skin which blisters easily. The different types of EB distinguish between where the blistering occurs, and how deep into the skin it occurs. In more severe cases blistering is also internal - so your throat when eating, your bowels and anus when passing stools etc.

Most of those born with the most severe form of EB will die before their 3rd birthday.

I am incredibly fortunate to have the mildest type as I said before. This means my blistering is localised to mainly my feet (when walking), my hands (if I need to work hard to open a jar or bottle, or if struggling with keys, or during vigorous mixing of cake mix) and my mouth (triggered by sharp foods for example crisps if they scrape my gums or tongue). I also get blistering or sore rubbed skin around clothing seams in hot weather, my bra is a major culprit.

If I ever have surgery, I need the nurses to use special dressings to protect my skin. If I ever have a baby I will need specialist care, and involvement from my EB clinic as the condition is so rare many doctors haven't heard of it, and need support from the EB specialists to manage the care of pregnant women. My baby would be tested at birth. I am prescribed specialist antiseptic creams as bursting my blisters, especially on my feet, poses a risk of infection. I am also prescribed specialist dressings and needles. These are expensive, and so I am not prescribed enough and have to ration them - especially spycra which helps prevent blistering occurring. They are also hard to source and it took a while to find a pharmacy which could source them.

It has occurred to me on these threads that some people with more severe EB could struggle to wear a mask as this could cause their face to blister due to the contact and warmth. Same would apply to the band around their head with a visor.

EB is often referred to as 'the worst condition you've never heard of'. I just thought this might be a good example to show that there are a myriad of unusual conditions out there that could affect people.

You simply do not know what someone else is going through.

Please, please think before you judge.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/epidermolysis-bullosa/symptoms/

@Fuckinellitsme

I no longer experience mask distress; when exposure therapy works, it works!

I think the thing to remember here is that everyone's different. Two people with exactly the same disability may experience it differently, for example. It's brilliant that you've made such progress - but for others this may not be possible.

Absolutely. People can have exactly the same condition yet having differing needs.

Thank you @EpidermolysisBullosa. I had a vague idea about this condition, that it existed, but I didn't know what it was called or just how debilitating it was. It must be hell to live with.

@Fuckinellitsme
thank you for trying to explain the 16.6 million,

If you have a physical or mental illness or impairment, or a disability that means you cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering
Will exempt automatically what at least 10% (maybe someone has found these figure)

People are saying I cannot wear one even though I have X condition.
Who told you this because there is no list of medical conditions.

If putting on, wearing or removing a face covering would cause you severe distress How do you proof this?

Section 6 of the Equality Act defines a disability

1)A person (P) has a disability if—
(a)P has a physical or mental impairment, and
(b)the impairment has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on P's ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.
(2)A reference to a disabled person is a reference to a person who has a disability.
(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of disability—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a person who has a particular disability;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons who have the same disability.
(4)This Act (except Part 12 and section 190) applies in relation to a person who has had a disability as it applies in relation to a person who has the disability; accordingly (except in that Part and that section)—
(a)a reference (however expressed) to a person who has a disability includes a reference to a person who has had the disability, and
(b)a reference (however expressed) to a person who does not have a disability includes a reference to a person who has not had the disability.
(5)A Minister of the Crown may issue guidance about matters to be taken into account in deciding any question for the purposes of subsection (1).
(6)Schedule 1 (disability: supplementary provision) has effect.

Of course not all will be walking around without a mask, but will it be this small amount often touted?

66.6 million in the UK
16.6 disabled
1 in 6 with MH

All they have to do is read the Corona Act, section 6 of the Equality Act and apply the guidelines to how they see fit. How many are pissed off with how they have been treated during this and how many of them were pissed off beforehand with all the battles and silencing they face?

The Daisy lanyard, the only time I ever see this mentioned is on here. It's been around for a few years now. And of course others will see it as bollocks because they like the radar key can be obtained by anyone.

Personally I have said from the beginning if I get a fine I will appeal and if this means I end up in court I will take my chance. I know I am going about my daily business lawfully. A judge has to look at the evidence, and it's not like we don't have various medical letters.

So why should we fear the possibility of prison when we aren't committing an offence?

I’m sorry if this has been posted I haven’t read the whole thread but I bought these cards online to put on my son’s sunflower lanyard. He is autistic with sensory issues and while we are encouraging him to wear a mask if he can, this is helpful if he feels he can’t for any reason and/or risks becoming distressed.

@canigooutyet

Many people with disabilities and conditions do want to wear masks though and they can. I honestly don’t think the numbers will be as big. People with certain physical conditions know they are higher risk so have been trying different face coverings and are fine with them.

It's astonishing that there is no formal appeals process as there is with, say, a parking ticket as mentioned above. Yes these laws had to be rushed though - but they'll be with us for a long time, so this needs to be addressed.

It's not an oversight. These are fixed penalty notices, issued as an alternative to prosecution for criminal offences. You either pay the penalty (and accept the points if it's a traffic offence) or you can be prosecuted.

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/out-of-court-disposals/5-penalty-notices-fixed-penalty-notices-and-penalty-notices-for-disorder/

canigooutyet we seem to be misunderstanding each other.

There is no automatic exemption for all disabilities.

If you have a physical or mental illness or impairment, or a disability that means you cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering

For example, someone with a visual impairment or mobility issues would meet the definition of disability in the EA but might have no problem wearing a mask. They would not be exempt.

You should not get a penalty notice if you have a 'reasonable excuse' not to wear a face covering and this includes if it would cause you severe distress or if you cannot wear one because of a physical or mental illness, impairment or disability.

But if you are given a penalty notice there is no appeals procedure. Your choices are:

1. pay it
2. ask to go to trial (a criminal trial in the magistrates court)
3. do nothing and wait to see if the police prosecute (a criminal trial in the magistrates court)

If it goes to court the judge will look at all the evidence, as you say. And as it's a criminal trial, the onus will be on the police to prove you are guilty, not on you to prove you are innocent.

You wouldn't be sent to prison though. If you were found guilty you would get a court fine and a criminal record.

In practice I very much doubt the police will be pushing for many prosecutions because of how badly they fucked it up during lockdown.

I doubt they will be giving out many penalty notices either, partly because they are fed up with the whole thing and partly because, as you say, if someone says wearing a mask would cause them severe distress then the police would have no way of proving otherwise.

But if someone was stopped for not wearing a mask and they just said 'I'm disabled so I don't have to' and their disability had nothing to do with their ability to wear a mask, then they could very well end up with a penalty notice.

I'm seeing on Twitter that BJ's announcement today included the plan to lift the requirement for masks on public transport from the 1 August but I can't find any evidence of this elsewhere? I haven't seen the actual announcement so that may be why!

Seems like yet more ridiculous non-joined up thinking from this government. Masks compulsory in shops from the 24th BUT not on buses etc from the 1st. And we can all use PT as much as we like now!

If this is true I wonder if the Mask Police will still be sitting in judgement of those without?

I watched most of the briefing and didn't spot anything about relaxing mask use after 1 August.

I was mostly watching to see how strongly we'd all be encouraged to stop WFH and return to the office though so may have missed it.