A little more understanding to those not wearing masks THREAD TWO

[Fuckinellitsme]

Following on from the first thread here

Thank you to all the lovely posters who have shared their experiences on the first thread. It's been incredibly useful in understanding why some people are exempt from wearing a mask on transport, in shops and so on. Particularly in terms of learning about health conditions that aren't widely known, and also the psychological reasons for exemption. Some incredibly brave posters on that thread for whom I am full of admiration.

For those who need them exemption lanyards are available here

Sunflower lanyards can also be picked up for free at several large supermarkets, including Sainsbury's and Asda.

If anyone feels they want/are able to share their reasons for exemption, please do - it may help others to understand why many people can't wear masks, and also (if the last thread is anything to go by) is useful for educating the rest of us on conditions we're not familiar with.

Stay safe all 💐

This is not like appealing a parking ticket! There is no formal appeal procedure. If you dispute your fine you will have to argue your case in magistrates court (AKA criminal court) and risk a conviction

Gosh @LangClegsInSpace, I did not know this. How dreadful. I suppose it could be argued that with the legislation having to be rushed through there was no time to consider appeals procedures - but by the same token, how on earth could something like this be passed when there is no right or way to challenge it?

Imagine some of the posters who have suffered abuse/sexual assault having to stand up in court and recount their abuse as a defence, knowing that if the court ruled against them they would be convicted and have a criminal record. Imagine how their ordeal would be compounded if they previously had had to stand up in court to face their attacker at their trial. This is just horrific.

Might be letters to MPs time.

I was just pointing out that to say there isn't an appeal process wasn't exactly right.

Prosecution in a magistrates court is not an appeal process.

In practice I doubt the police will be as keen to pursue prosecutions as they were under lockdown.

~15,000 fines were issued for lockdown breaches. 44 went to prosecution and all of these were thrown out.

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-dozens-wrongly-charged-under-lockdown-laws-cps-says-11988865

The worrying thing is how many people would have just paid the fine when they might not have broken the law.

I don't think the police will be as zealous this time round. As well as all the thrown out prosecutions they must be knee deep in police complaints by now. They certainly don't seem keen on enforcing face coverings.

Incredibly proud of my other country

twitter.com/LouiseRawAuthor/status/1283480584501821440?s=20

Dr Louise Raw
@LouiseRawAuthor
In Italy, quality masks were given out FREE at pharmacies or sold for a few pence.
Their Gvt could manage it.
Ours could easily manage it too.

Instead it’s a profiteering free for all.

Many cheaper masks slip down/ don’t fit securely, so won’t work well.

Another clusterf*

I knew there would be people who would say a visor isnt good enough. Vindicated!!!

i had five recurrent flare ups of facial impetigo in nine years The bacteria colonizes in the nose. Thats what happens to some of us. Its nothing to do with poor hygiene. No antibiotics for this could cause huge problems.

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/clinical/clinical-specialties/prescribing/gps-should-not-prescribe-antibiotics-for-impetigo-says-nice/20039181.article

GPs should not prescribe antibiotics for impetigo, says NICE
14 August 2019 By Beth Gault

The guidelines, from NICE and Public Health England (PHE), say that GPs should recommend topical antiseptic instead of antibiotics, with the aim of reducing antimicrobial resistance.

It found that antiseptics, such as hydrogen peroxide 1% cream, were just as effective as topical antibiotics and therefore should be prescribed instead.

However, the guidelines state that GPs can still prescribe an oral antibiotic if the non-bullous impetigo is widespread, or the patient is systematically unwell or at risk of complications.

Non-bullous impetigo is the more common form of skin infection, usually starting with a rash of small, pus-filled blisters, compared to bullous impetigo, which presents with sores and intact blisters, according to the British Skin Foundation.

It is highly infectious and although usually clears up within two to three weeks without treatment, it is usually treated with an antibiotic to prevent the spread of infection and speed up recovery, according to NICE.

A spokesperson from NICE said: ‘NICE now say that topical antiseptics should be offered to people with localised, non-bullous impetigo if they aren’t systemically unwell or at risk of developing any complications.

If antiseptic treatment is not suitable, or a person has widespread non-bullous impetigo, a topical antibiotic should be given instead (fusidic acid 2%). An oral antibiotic (flucloxacillin) is also an option for people with widespread non-bullous impetigo and should be given first line if the person has bullous impetigo or if they are systemically unwell or at risk of developing any complications.’

The guidance also included that GPs should not combine a topical and oral antibiotic to treat impetigo, as using both is ‘no more effective’ than using one.

It follows a pledge by the Government to cut antibiotics prescribing by a further 15%.

David Banner | GP Partner/Principal14 Aug 2019 5:21pm

I’m sure that those impetigo patients subsequently admitted with “sepsis” will be perfectly satisfied that their GP failed to prescribe an antibiotic

Nick Mann | Salaried GP15 Aug 2019 1:02pm

Facial impetigo is likely to represent URT carriage of pathogenic Staph/Strep
Topical treatment of any kind does nothing to address this

The patient remains a risk to themselves and to any contacts
Cases of neumonia, sepsis and scarlet fever have increased. Who is researching the impact/harms of not treating
Too many agenda guidelines based on too little medical evidence.

Carpe vinum! | GP Partner/Principal15 Aug 2019 1:59pm

and then what about school absence? The HPA advice is exclusion from school until 48 hours after antibiotics commenced, or until lesions have crusted and healed. So parents to keep kids off school for 2-3 weeks under the above guidance - I'm sure that's going to go down well on the school attendance record!

Bacteria thrive in hot, moist conditions. So impetigo tends to be seasonal, peaking in the summer and fall in northern climates. In warm and humid climates, it tends to occur year-round

Causes
Impetigo is an infection caused by strains of staph or strep bacteria. These bacteria can get into your body through a break in the skin from a cut, scratch, insect bite, or rash. Then they can invade and colonize.

The condition can be contagious. You can catch these bacteria if you touch the sores of a person with impetigo or you touch items like towels, clothes, or sheets that the person used.

However, these bacteria are also common in our environment, and most people who come in contact with them won’t necessarily develop impetigo.

Some people normally carry staph bacteria on the inside of their nose. They may get infected if the bacteria spreads to their skin

Impetigo on adults
Although impetigo is more common in young children, adults can get it too. Because it’s so contagious, impetigo can spread through any close contact. Adults who play sports often catch it from skin-to-skin contact.

The symptoms of impetigo in adults are sores around the nose and mouth or other exposed areas of the body that break open, ooze, and then crust.

Generally, impetigo is a mild skin condition, but adults have a higher risk of complications than children These include:

acute post-streptococcal glomerulonephritis
cellulitis
lymphangitis
sepsis

To save opening some links from within the legislation - This is the Section 6 of the Equality Act mentioned in the transport link which was used to determine "disability"

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/6

This is the entire public transport regs which @LangClegsInSpace posted a segment of earlier.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/592/introduction/made#f00015

Again it's not about seeking ways to find loopholes, just to help those who cannot wear them do so within the legislation. If they think that they wouldn't be able to cope under the stress at the time, it gives them chances to prepare themselves for if.

Before I go a little about me (some, not all I have mentioned previously under this nn. And of course the beauty of MN I can scrub this nn)

My first public transport trip, I kept telling myself it was fine as long as I tried. Hopefully next time I could do it, been twice, essential journeys and no. The same way I kept telling myself the first time I took a few steps out of my home, it was fine, I wasn't doing anything illegal. Well I say kept telling myself this, still do.

Many times I've gone to the 24 hour shop at 3am knowing everywhere is quiet, just to avoid people. Cannot always deal with a delivery, never mind the whole process, but having that stranger knock at the door (not in that report just in case way). I will sound happy about this to those who knows, am I happy?

Of course not. I will crack jokes, but inside I am dying from the isolation and solitude because I know society could do away with me if they could. You and me both. You think I want to live like this? Doesn't help one of my things is risky behaviour.

I make plans all the time, even have some hotel rooms booked throughout the month. Wishful thinking and a part of wanting to do "normal" things. Fully refundable and I give places enough notice to re-book.

I long for the days when I could just get out of bed, get ready and go. Many days I want to go but I am unable either because of the physical or mh stuff, and good days I get the delights of both.

Paranoia is another one of my struggles, spend some time reading all the stay the fuck indoors if you cannot wear a mask you selfish whatever (you get the picture), even taking the rubbish out becomes hard because everyone is judging you. Yea I know, close the browser, I do but it's too late the words have seeped in. THe meme's oh but they are aimed at the loopholers not you - funny except X rarely gets mentioned.

I have neurological, organ, phlebotomy, mental, autoimmune, renal, gastric, bowel, skeletal, lung, muscular and nerve issues. Some born with, some because of other health stuff - accidents in surgery, reactions to treatments etc. And some through general life accidents. I have ptsd still from something horrific that happened in hospital several years ago, never mind something that happened last year that even medical people themselves are appalled about. Plus other wtaf moments over my life. I could go on and on about my health, parts of me are including in teaching videos!!

All I try and do is live some live quality of life. Last year it was zero for over half the year, and not the first time, some years I spend more time ill than healthy if that makes sense. I try and avoid "burdening" myself on people because I know well I am a burden simply from existing. I don't try and tell others how to live their lives, I have enough shit to worry about as it is. I'm in my 40's, I have had to live with germs and viruses and all the rest of it all my life. Yea fuck knows how I am still here, even fucked those attempts up.

In the past few days I have had my mh health used against me, I have been called a conspiracy theorist, selfish, rude, looking for a way to avoid the rules, your exempt so why you posting etc. Ask to explain why, mentions of some enforced ID system, proof of documentation (what yea patient sees psychiatrist at whatever MH place? ), badges, lanyards and countless other ways. I could go on.

All I have asked as a none mask wearer who is exempt and the actual specifics of those health things I am not going into, has been for some consideration. Weird hey? I've even posted what info I have found online in the hopes maybe it could help others make informed choices.

Anyway nite all, not a flounce!! Sorry about the length, hopefully there aren't too many grammar/spelling errors. Not aimed at anyone, just a general arrggh i suppose. Nowhere to really talk about this shit without well.....

Anyone else having trouble getting hold of a lanyard? Been waiting for 2 weeks now.

This is why i have bought a pre op scrub to apply to my face before putting a mask on. But i will ONLY be doing this for an essential shop. I dont see why i should put myself at risk of a pre existing skin condition OR cover myself in a pre op scrub to try and prevent said condition re occuring under the mask for the sake of the High Street especially when the Wetherspoon goers are fighting outside there on a Friday night sans masks and sans social distancing. Fine for being drunk and disorderly £40 to £80 Fine for no mask £100!!! I havent been to hairdressers either and dont intend to.

DB has purchased some visors We should be getting them next week DH has COPD and ischemic heart disease.

Oh and i will mask or visor up if i have to go to GP surgery obvs

I am not exempt. This is despite having a serious lung condition that leaves me breathless at times, and prior PTSD symptoms related to surgical masks.

I don't seek to be exempt, though I probably could on the above basis, and have learned to tolerate mask wearing at times I must be in enclosed spaces like buses or GP surgery or shops, and otherwise limit my exposure to other people.

All of us who can possibly learn to wear masks for unavoidable times of enclosed contact with others should.

Some people truly cannot mask. That's a minority of people. Discomfort is not a reason not to mask, imo, speaking as someone who had to discover a way not to have a panic attack at the sight of a mask.

@Fuckinellitsme @ItsNotJustAboutYou Could Womens Aid put out a statement. Just to raise awareness.

canigooutyet if you can't wear a face covering because of your mental health issues then you are exempt.

I was responding to your earlier post where you said -

Realistically the 16.6 million disabled, and the 1 in 6 with MH could just as easily say sod it, my choice I am not wearing one, and no I am not showing you evidence. I will take my fine and appeal it.

You appeared to be suggesting that anyone with any sort of disability or mental health issue could (should?) claim an exemption even if it was irrelevant to their ability to wear a face covering.

You suggested that people could do this because 'sod it, my choice I am not wearing one.'

I understand how blurred the line can become between 'I can't do this' and 'I choose not to do this' because people with MH issues are constantly told that they could do X if they really wanted to and if they really tried, and they are just choosing not to try. And admitting you can't do something is crushing and it feels so much better if you can tell yourself you are just choosing not to. And if things are really bad then telling yourself something is your choice can be a matter of survival because you don't have the spare capacity to deal with the crushing blow of another thing you can't do.

But it's really important that everyone who can't wear a face covering says so and doesn't pretend they are just choosing not to, because there are a fuckton of other people saying they choose not to who could easily wear one. And they make it much much harder for everyone who really can't.

Also it's important for people to know that this is not what the law says and it's unlikely to stand up as a defence in a criminal court.

'I have MH issues and cannot wear a face covering because it causes me severe distress' - good defence.

'It's my choice not to wear a face covering and I have a disability so there's nothing you can do' - likely conviction.

Well well well..................how entirely predictable. Cant see the whole article as i dont subscribe to the Telegraph but quelle surprise.

"Test and trace being used to harass women already"

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/test-trace-used-harass-women-already/

I knew there would be people who would say a visor isnt good enough. Vindicated!!!

Yeah, they're not much use in this situation.

That doesn't mean you should try and force yourself to wear a mask if you can't, it just means you should use the exemption the government has provided and you are not obliged to work your way through a list of chocolate teapot alternatives first.

@LangClegsInSpace that wasnt aimed at you someone mentioned it before you did and i posted the replies straight away.

I've just posted this on the other thread as it's still going and I'm going to post it here too. (Long so a second post!) Thank you so much @Fuckinellitsme for starting the threads and hopefully they will help some people have a greater understanding and so they will show some more understanding to others in return. Some posters have been so brave sharing their stories (I'm sorry I don't feel up to explaining mine properly again)

to all brave and struggling posters and I hope things look up for you and that everyone has more understanding and happiness in their lives.

"If OP is like the person who cannot vaccinate, others of us are like the people with a fear of needles - and that's something many of us can overcome"

Well, a needle has never held me down with it's hand over my mouth and nose and raped me while I couldn't breathe.

I'm glad for you that you yourself could change your avoidant behaviour but comments such as yours above do not fucking help. I can't stand the "oh well I didn't mean you" coupled with helpful advice and an implication that because you/your friend/your best friend's cousins can wear a mask despite asthma/claustrophobia/lung issues/MH issues, everybody else can and should.

Why cannot people just accept some other people are exempt for good reasons and leave it at that? Is it that you think exemptions shouldn't exist at all? or that you feel some exemptions aren't "good enough"? Or is that because some people won't comply for no good reason, every single person should have to force themselves no matter what their reasons are? There seems to be no other possible reasons for this constant judgement and helpful tips and advice and admonishment and well I don't judge you but some other people will think you're a selfish cunt so be warned...

I suggest whichever of the above reasons you have for posting here that makes you say YABU to the question "AIBU to ask people to show a little more understanding" you take a good hard long look at yourself and if you still think YABU to the question - take it up with the government re exemptions instead of either thoughtlessly or deliberately upsetting people who have been raped/have life threatening lung issues/disabilities etc. Or telling us we have to wear a badge so other people don't think we are selfish cunts.

There are lots of people in the same boat as me and we are real people who the government themselves recognise should be exempt because of difficult, sometimes horrifyingly awful situations which are not our fault. And it's also not our fault some other people just can't be arsed wearing masks. Why are people making us responsible for this?

I'm honestly not trying to sound like a martyr but this thread kept me awake in the night, knowing there are so many people who will be looking at me and judging me for not being able to wear a mask is really upsetting. I said at the beginning of the thread I don't really give a fuck what people think of me but after reading nearly 1000 comments of hearing people think I am selfish/wilfully exposing people/thoughtless/could actually do it if I pushed myself/should stay at home if I can't, I've changed my
mind - I don't actually think I can bring myself to go out and think people are looking at me and they're thinking all these things about me in RL. I was going to get face mask fabric (for my family) later and I've just asked my DS to pick it on the way home from work instead as I don't want to go out now.

And how many more people like me have read this thread and feel guilty and shit and aren't leaving their houses now?

I'm sorry but I'm going to ask MNHQ to delete my posts, I know this is only about 5 seconds later but I realise from the other thread replies already it was completely fucking pointless. people don't want to understand and they don't even listen when other people try to explain so we are completely wasting our time. Just let people think what they want as nothing will change them and they will anyway

With respect and care, I've explicitly accepted that Itsnotjustabouyou falls into the category of cannot mask.

If it were me, and a thread saying those who can should, and those who can't don't have to, was making me feel guilty, I'd take that to therapy. That's not a snide comment. You're hurting. But the idea that those who can, should, acknowledging a minority cannot, isn't extreme or uncaring.

I no longer experience mask distress; when exposure therapy works, it works!

It's not appropriate for some people, and for someone like the OP, it's pointless. She has pain, not a phobia.

My point is I hear people say they can't mask because of trivial reasons, like 'gets hot' or 'rash'. If I can try, so can they.

People whose reasons are non-trivial don't have to try. People with extreme pain, or major trauma are like those for whom vaccination is contraindicated.

Fwiw, I've made zero IRL comments to the majority of people who choose not to or cannot mask.

@ItsNotJustAboutYou Great post that says it all

I was awake about 2 a.m. wondering if I can rearrange the weekly shopping. I do the bulk of it at Aldi, so online isn't an option and it's going to put the prices up a fair bit if I switch somewhere else. I use Tesco for the things Aldi don't sell - could I bulk shop monthly and/or use Click and Collect?

After 10 minutes of that, I was up, pacing like a caged tiger, chain smoking and wondering whether to have a drink. Because I was absolutely furious with myself, wondering what kind of a pathetic, snivelling, excuse for an adult I've allowed a bunch of cowardly cyber-bullies to turn me into. If I go out without a mask, I am doing nothing wrong so why the fuck am I even thinking about trying to 'comply' with the unreasonable and hysterical demands of people who simply don't like the law.

Yes, I'm also sick of the 'I don't mean you' responses. I've no time for people who say that about race, immigration or benefit claimants and it's very clear that the mask fanatics are of that mindset. You want to assume the worst about everyone - fine, go ahead. I'm not the kind of person - even now - who's going to worry about people muttering and tutting at me, although I have every sympathy with people who will be worried by that. And it's a certainty that those who've shouted the loudest and shown zero understanding are going to be too gutless to actually challenge anyone in person.

TfL have reported that 90% of passengers are wearing face coverings while 5% have medical exemption. That leaves another 5%. Over 20,000 passengers have been stopped for not wearing masks with a massive total of 61 fines issued. There is no reason to suppose those figures won't be reflected in shops - the majority will masks and among those who don't you would need prolonged contact to be infected, not just walk past them in a supermarket.

Get some perspective and pull yourselves together. And stay at least 2m away from people who aren't wearing a mask. I won't say show some understanding because it's a waste of time. And I know this post will have been a waste of time as the people it's aimed at will ignore it.

@ImOnTheWrongPlanet

Anyone else having trouble getting hold of a lanyard? Been waiting for 2 weeks now.

I ordered just before the mask announcement and they came yesterday.

One for dd2 who I had been meaning to get one for anyway and now a kid with spatial and coordination issues is like a public enemy I figured I really needed to, and one for me as my mental health has disintegrated to the level of constant panic attack since this was all announced. I probably still just won’t leave the house anyway.

@ItsNotJustAboutYou

I'm sorry but I'm going to ask MNHQ to delete my posts, I know this is only about 5 seconds later but I realise from the other thread replies already it was completely fucking pointless. people don't want to understand and they don't even listen when other people try to explain so we are completely wasting our time. Just let people think what they want as nothing will change them and they will anyway

No please don't. Your posts have really helped some of us who are struggling.

If the comment about someone saying masks aren't void enough was aimed at me I'm afraid you have misunderstood my intent, probably because most of my comments have been on the previous thread and I realise that without that context it would look that way.
My thinking is that if someone can't where a mask the common response that you should wear a visor then seemed a bit pointless. IMO people just need to accept that some people can't wear a mask and drop useless box ticking that just adds to stress. Ditto for flimsy scarves etc. People should just accept that some people can't and get on with their own lives.