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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

..to consider shopping my friend for her benefit fraud?!

304 replies

NadiaBaggyTwat · 28/09/2007 22:01

My friend and I both work in local government. We are quite close and I have known her for years but she is incredibly bad with money and never makes any attempt to get herself back on track. Usually her mother bails her out and she just goes on spending. She is a good hearted person, but this is the one aspect of her that I find really hard to stand by and watch.

Close to Christmas, a group of us, including said friend and our DHs are going to France for the weekend. This was arranged months ago. It's costing £200 per couple and my DH and I are having a really really hard time financially at the moment (not from overspending but problems with DH's business) so we weren't going to go but friend owes me £150 from something I paid for on my card (because it was a surprise from her to her DP and which she's - obviously - never paid me back for ) and to my suprise she said "well you can come because remember, I owe you £150..."

So we agreed to go. Anyway the time came for this money to be paid and I gave her the £50 as agreed (for the rest of the £200 for her to pass on to another friend who was paying all the money in) and she said she needed at least £100.. she couldn't afford to pay our money (that she owes!) because she hadn't paid her mortgage for months. I gave it to her (the trip has to be paid for!) but really resented it as I only agreed to go because I knew we wouldn't have to find much of the money!

Meanwhile, at work she is constantly talking to everyone about her posh meals out with DP, her tanning/nails/waxing appointments. And next thing, she's whining to me about the terrible state of her finances. And she does really spend money like this.. she isn't just saying it to impress!

Worse still, despite is both working for a government agency she is actually defrauding them! For well over a year now, since she has been living with her new partner, she has been claiming as a single person (with children). This amounts to over £100 a week that she isn't entitled to!!

I have told her outright time and again she needs to stop spending money like water and on luxuries she can't afford and START declaring that she has a partner living with her and the children, but nothing changes and she says she just can't afford to declare that he lives there. (They even bought a HUGE posh new house on this basis!)

I am so upset about the whole money thing and having to listen to her day in and day out talking about what she's bought (she shops compulsively as well in v.expensive clothes shops) all the while owing me money I lent her in good faith to help her out (albeit for another extravagance.. a birthday present she couldn't afford to buy her DP)... that... (and this is really bad .. I want to report her.

But if I did she may even lose her job, bearing in mind where we work.. Not to mention her house. And I would probably feel terrible forever.

I am an extreme regular with a (very inappropriate; sorry!) name change to protect various identities.

What would others do? Please?

OP posts:
Journey · 30/09/2007 13:43

If she still owes you money I'd ask for it back by next pay day.

Secondly, if you hadn't met this person would you have considered yourself to be a person who would have informed the government of benefit fraud? If the answer "yes" then inform them. If "no" leave it. That way this person isn't "making" you do something out with your character.

"i've told her outright time and again to stop spending money ..." I don't think this is a friendship at all. It sounds more like a mother/daughter relationship. Cut the ties and concentrate on your own life.

Earlybird · 30/09/2007 13:47

Nadine - what an upsetting situation.

I have a question: you're very good friends, and you work together. When she gets caught (seems inevitable it will happen sooner or later), she presumably will lose her job. Will you then be viewed with suspicion by your superiors? Is the close association with her potentially damaging to your future/prospects at work? They could assume you must have known, and looked the other way (complicit) - or maybe even were somehow 'in on the scam'.

You need to ensure that loyalty to her does not somehow stand to reflect negatively on you. Could you be made an example of for knowingly 'allowing' the fraud to be perpetrated - especially as it is a chronic longterm thing, and not a one-time offense.

law3 · 30/09/2007 13:52

If I pay cash for services, it is not my responsibility to ensure the provider submits an accurate tax return. It is as bad as suggesting people that leave valuables in their car are responsible for the actions of the person that steals them.

It pisses me off that 'crimes' that are associated with the working class are looked down upon. But middle class crimes are acceptable.

Mr and Mrs Middle England may plot their crimes from the comfort of their conservatories but, if anything, they are just as DISHONEST as the muggers.

ebenezer · 30/09/2007 14:00

Well you've got me really confused now law!! YOU were the one who said 'paying cash to avoid taxation', implying that it's a crime. I pointed out that it isn't - if I pay a bill in cash then of course it's the responsibility of the person providing the service to declare it!! And what the hell are you on about that 'middle class crime' (whatever that means - I thought crime was crime) is acceptable?? Rubbish!!! I couldn;t give a toss what 'class' people think they are, I'm not remotely interested in being classist. A crime is a crime. End of.

law3 · 30/09/2007 14:10

Ebenzer - so its ok for you to turn a blind eye as to whether the person you pay cash to pays an accurate tax return or not, thats not your responsibility, if he commits fraud, thats his problem.

But it is your responsibility to report someone who is committing benefit fraud, their fraud becomes your problem.

How does that work then, whats the difference??? they are both committing fraud and costing the tax payer money???????

ebenezer · 30/09/2007 14:17

I didn't say I'd turn a blind eye!! I said I assumed the person would declare it, because unlike you, I DON'T assume that everyone acts dishonestly! If I knew they were not declaring their earnings and were defrauding the system then yeah, I would have no problem reporting them.

bubbsy · 30/09/2007 14:19

nadine,
getting back to your question have you decided what your next action is and have any of the replys been the answer you were looking for, because at the end of the day the problem lies with you. and whatever action you take, believe that is the right one for you with no regret.

InMyHumbleOpinion · 30/09/2007 14:20

law, it is no more my responsibilty to not pay cash for bills than it is my responsibilty to restrict everyone's car engines to 60 miles an hour to stop them speeding. If I have cash, I will pay cash. Accepting cash for services rendered is not a crime. Committing benefit fraud is a crime. It is a crime that has already happened, not a potential crime.

Heated · 30/09/2007 14:24

If your friend didn't owe you, then presumably you wouldn't have thought about reporting her?

Whatever the rights or wrongs of this, your friend owing you the money is the crux of the matter and, to metaphorically lance the boil, you need to get the money back.

Since money has soured your relationship (well, in your eyes; I doubt she has any awareness) don't lend her money again, especially since it has caused you financial hardship.

ebenezer · 30/09/2007 14:30

inmyhumbleopinion - great post. spot on.

Trix11 · 30/09/2007 14:34

Excuse my ignorance but wont she get caught anyway - there is always adverts on the radio how people are being investigated and there are supposed to be ways and means of finding out who the people making fraudulent claims are. Dont people watch your house?

Blondilocks · 30/09/2007 14:39

I don't think you're being unreasonable. Many people are actually hard up genuinely & scrimp & save for the slightest luxury item & then people like her the p**s. If I was in your situation then I wouldn't think twice of reporting it. I assume you can do it anonymously.

I'm sure she'll be caught out soon enough anyway. People just have to realise that they're not automatically entitled to luxury items.

Really now!

ShinyHappyPeopleHoldingHands · 30/09/2007 14:40

There are ways and means; but by no means everyone gets caught out. Those adverts are just trying to scare people into declaring what they should be declaring; or entice people who know, to report them. I think the fact that this person has been fraudulantly claiming under the noses of her employers for a considerable amount of time tells its own story doesn't it

Trix11 · 30/09/2007 14:46

She must be very good at lying or least watching what she says at work - to not mention her partner at all.

law3 · 30/09/2007 14:46

IMHO - im not disputing the fact that benefit fraud is a crime and it has already been committed.

Im disputing the fact we (society) pick and choose which fraud to ignore. 'working class' fraud seems to be less acceptable, than middle class 'fraud'.

ebenezer · 30/09/2007 14:49

WHO has said that 'working class' is less acceptable than 'middle class' fraud? What do these terms mean anyway? Seems that you're the only one who keeps going on about it. The law is the law and applies to everyone, regardless of race, gender, class, whatever.

Original poster
NadiaBaggyTwat · 30/09/2007 14:58

Trix, she and I do not work in the same department as that which processes claims connected with single parents.

Everyone we work with clearly assumes that she stopped claiming as a single parent when her partner (who she talks about and everyone knows she lives with) moved in. I think it's only me who knows she is still claiming.

And of course those that processed her claim in another building in another town. It's all pretty much automatic after the claim goes through anyway. The computer pays her, not a person!

OP posts:
law3 · 30/09/2007 15:02

ebenzer - this obviously doesnt apply to you as you are whiter than white and i apologise.

I have broken the speed limit, i have forgotten to put on my seatbelt, i have paid a builder cash for a cheaper price, i have taken a pen from the office, i have kept the change.

I am only human and not too scared to admit it. Gets on my nerves people claiming to be perfect.

ebenezer · 30/09/2007 15:05

no need to make snidy bitchy comments law - i've never said I'm whiter than white. Just answer the question - what is 'middle class' fraud and 'working class' fraud and why do you make a distinction between them? Why not treat everyone as equals?

talulasmum · 30/09/2007 15:20

what about middleclass parents who deliberately lie on school application forms just to get their kids into a certain school?
they dont consider this a crime however, they call it "playing the game"

ebenezer · 30/09/2007 15:22

i would consider any parent, middle class, working class or whatever class who lied on a form to be acting unlawfully. I just don't get this classist attitude - it's quite repulsive.

law3 · 30/09/2007 15:23

ebenezer - Wasnt a bitchy comment, you have stated that you have never done any of those things, so i am sincere in saying you are whiter than white, i admire you.

'lower class crime' - welfare scams, mugging, burglary, etc, etc.

'higher class crime' - tax avoidance, padding insurance claims, taking something from work, padding expenses claims.

In society, claiming welfare fraudently isnt as bad as paying a builder cash for a cheaper price knowing full well he wont declare it.

Sorry if my opinion upsets anyone, at the end of the day, you might not see it that way and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion

law3 · 30/09/2007 15:29

oooops meant to say is worse

ebenezer · 30/09/2007 15:31

sorry but i really can't go along with your class distinctions re: crime. I find it quite nauseating to think that certain crimes are attributed to certain classes.

Tortington · 30/09/2007 15:32

ive done some working class and middle class fraud. as a means to an end rather than a lifestyle.

i rather think " there but for the grace of god" in most circumstances