Drag, drag, drag....

[Yarboosucks]

I have never been a particularly sensitive or active feminist, but all this drag rubbish on TV is getting to me. How at a time when rightly you could not broadcast in black face or similar is it OK to mock or at best caricature women so ridiculously?

DifficultPificult there was a Pride event where drag queens were uninvited due to transwomen taking offense.

Strange when women complain theyre told to STFU, yet when transwomen do theyre listened too.

smells like male priviledge

If you're going down the road of all drag is mocking women, then it is mocking transwomen

Well no.

The fact that it's women saying they are not offended by drag acts means it's not the same as white men saying Blackface was just for a laugh.

Lenny Henry performed with the Black and White Minstrels in the 70s. He is now quite open about being used as a political football (it's not offensive, look we have a black comedian performing with us). He was doing what he had to do to get his career established.

@PheasantPlucker1

DifficultPificult there was a Pride event where drag queens were uninvited due to transwomen taking offense.

Strange when women complain theyre told to STFU, yet when transwomen do theyre listened too.

smells like male priviledge

Yup yup yup.

"Fishy" being used as a compliment!? Fuck off, it's awful I've never liked drag and I like it even less knowing that happens.

I think we should have a reverse version of drag where women dress up as men and act all butch, we could call them 'push acts'
What, where women put on a fake beer belly, fart, scratch their crotch then sniff their fingers and say "Euw, cheese"? If "fishy" is OK then so are knob cheese gags (although I suspect men won't care about that as it's nowhere near as insulting as the whole fishy fanny "joke").

[quote ABingThing]@AlsDiner exactly what I was going to say!

As for the relation to blackface:

Example 1: oppressing class dresses up as oppressed class and uses jokes and songs to parody and demean them

Example 2: oppressing class dresses up as oppressed class and uses jokes and songs to parody and demean them

I'll leave you to decide which example is drag and which example is blackface[/quote]
So it's the context but I think that's where it gets more complex with drag. For blackface there's only one - white people presenting a parody of black people as simple, happy, grateful even. Looking at it as man/woman it's similar, but that ignores the influence of the gay community. An alternative interpretation sees gay men as the oppressed class who are oppressed by a heteronormative class, which would mean drag doesn't fit either of example 1 or 2 (you can even think of biker chic as a male parody). Because of the different power dynamics, I think it's too simplistic to compare it to blackface, even if I think some aspects of drag are questionable.

What, where women put on a fake beer belly, fart, scratch their crotch then sniff their fingers and say "Euw, cheese"? If "fishy" is OK then so are knob cheese gags (although I suspect men won't care about that as it's nowhere near as insulting as the whole fishy fanny "joke").

No women should parody the way many treat women. That would get a reaction.

men not many

One form of drag (the kind we are talking about here) is a man expressing himself in a feminine manner.

Blackface is literally racism.

Men can be traditionally feminine, men can wear make up and 'feminine' clothes but white people cannot be black.

PheasantPlucker1 some queens are ridiculous, some trans folk are ridiculous, there are people from every walk of life that are ridiculous. It doesn't mean that you can think negatively about a whole group of people based on the actions of some of that group.

I have no problem with men wearing dresses or makeup.

I do have a problem with unpleasant, misogynist representations of women. I have yet to see a drag act that is just the former and not the latter. If I do, I’ll revise my opinion but at the moment I find drag offensive and the literal definition of puerile.

DifficulPificult do these male drag queens become women when they put on a dress?

There is a huge difference between feminine men, and men claiming to be women when they put a dress on.

Why is it they pretend to be female?

It's ironic that drag ignores (at best) feminism, given that if feminism succeeded, the removal of gender stereotypes means that anyone could present exactly how they want unremarkably and with no implications of superior/inferior.

Or isn't that what they want?

I hate drag. Don’t get it at all. It looks ridiculous and insulting to women.

I don't like drag but never really minded it, but now you point it out OP the double standard is very depressing.

"Men can wear dresses and makeup and sing and dance if they want to."

Yes, they can. But they wouldn't be drag acts.

Drag becomes drag when it parodies women. The make up is a stylised mask, like geisha. The clothing often sexualised. The dance style usually sexualised, from what I've seen.

It's ironic that drag ignores (at best) feminism, given that if feminism succeeded, the removal of gender stereotypes means that anyone could present exactly how they want unremarkably and with no implications of superior/inferior.

But then drag acts would have no demand for their “art”.

I used to really enjoy ru Paul drag race early seasons, and I've enjoyed the Netflicks programs on the early contestants, like Alyssa Edwards etc. I enjoyed the art and costumes etc. Now, it's a question of who can be the most bitchy, throw shade, be crude, the clever, tongue in cheek jokes are now downright vulgar.

I loved Lily Savage, Paul O Grady was witty and dry and so clever. He is quite right to dismiss this new generation of drag "queen's"

@zh91 you can even think of biker chic as a male parody

You're going to have to elaborate on that one. I'm a female biker - I wear leathers or textiles (depending on the weather) because they protect me every bit as well as they protect men. It's not a parody, it's safety gear?

The roots may be in gay culture, but gay men can still be misogynistic, and they are still part of the oppressive class when it comes to women.

Why is it they pretend to be female?

The majority don't. They are fine with being men who like dresses and make up and entertaining.

Drag becomes drag when it parodies women. The make up is a stylised mask, like geisha. The clothing often sexualised. The dance style usually sexualised, from what I've seen.

Yes and add to this the "drag" slang.

It's utterly offensive towards women.

For example the term "fishy" for someone appearing authentically female or "beating a face" to indicate "good" drag make up.

DifficultPifikukt if they were acting as men, theyd be drag kings

What do men act like exactly? Should they all be talking about football and beer 24/7?

It's you who is gender stereotyping here.

Men must act this particular way, if they dont then they are parodying a woman, based on the fact that some people within that group do it.

Do some research into all types of drag, I have met hundreds of drag queens over the years, there are so many different kinds, you are focussing on one kind, that you dont like, and saying everyone is the same.

Call out individual people or events you dont like, not a whole genre of entertainment based on, what seems to be, a pretty limited knowledge of all the different types of drag there are.

Eddie Izzard can wear dress and make up and still be male.

That’s very different from outfits and makeup designed to take the piss.

I’m not a fan of traditional drag acts. To me it often seems to enforce old fashioned, misogynistic , contemptuous, stereotypes of womanhood. Paul O’Grady doing Lily Savage sums it up for me - Lily is bitchy and unkind about everyone, other women, gay men, the straight men she has sex with and she looks like a cruel caricature of a back street hooker. I know that is everything POG worked to create but to me it seems very negative
I know some modern drag artistes are less unkind. My adult feminist daughter loves them and I can see a great deal of artistry and skill I’m what they do but I’m still uncomfortable with it.

I agree with the PP who compare it to blackface. It’s men taking a few recognisable features of a less powerful minority and Imitating/mocking them for light entertainment.

In a world where Trump got elected after imitating and mocking a disabled reporter live on tv, perhaps that's the next big thing? People making a living from imitating disability for laughs? Or sponsored pussy grabbing?

I was at a political meeting also attended by Eddie Izzard last year, and personally speaking, whatever he'd put up his top to make boobs, did feel a bit like he was taking the piss.

That's just my opinion though, and I'm not sure if I'm right to feel it.