Drag, drag, drag....

[Yarboosucks]

I have never been a particularly sensitive or active feminist, but all this drag rubbish on TV is getting to me. How at a time when rightly you could not broadcast in black face or similar is it OK to mock or at best caricature women so ridiculously?

@Xiaoxiong

I used to like the silliness of panto dames and the over the top campiness of drag (eg. I loved the original Priscilla film) - I rewatched that the other day and it didn't feel in any way misogynistic. I watched Drag Race and it was something that felt quite different and pretty contemptuous towards women - then I realised what the term "fishy" meant. It's a pretty gross and demeaning stereotype that women have gross and smelly genitalia. That opened my eyes to other misogynistic stereotypes that I'm really not here for, women being shrieky/shrill, emotional, bitchy, cliquey, jokes about periods being disgusting etc. I'm not such a fan of the drag race brand of drag.

Completely agree. And you don't have to wear full make-up and wear heals and dress to be a women. And it's not the same as an impersonator, they're true to their original character, drag is not. And I say this as a female that wears make-up even if I don't leave the house.

@Xiaoxiong

I used to like the silliness of panto dames and the over the top campiness of drag (eg. I loved the original Priscilla film) - I rewatched that the other day and it didn't feel in any way misogynistic. I watched Drag Race and it was something that felt quite different and pretty contemptuous towards women - then I realised what the term "fishy" meant. It's a pretty gross and demeaning stereotype that women have gross and smelly genitalia. That opened my eyes to other misogynistic stereotypes that I'm really not here for, women being shrieky/shrill, emotional, bitchy, cliquey, jokes about periods being disgusting etc. I'm not such a fan of the drag race brand of drag.

Completely agree. And you don't have to wear full make-up and wear heals and dress to be a women. And it's not the same as an impersonator, they're true to their original character, drag is not. And I say this as a female that wears make-up even if I don't leave the house.

Black and white minstrels:
White people copying black entertainers with a particular style, wearing blackface and clown like clothes. A parody of black entertainers

Drag
Men copying beautiful women, wearing heavy makeup and clown like clothes. A parody of women.

I have some time for RuPaul himself as he's quite philosophical and realistic about it all. But I find Drag Race itself just too annoying. All the stupid bitchy arguments ands snowflakery - and it does make me feel depressingly caricatured.

I used to like Dame Edna.

I used to find it entertaining - in its place.

But with everyone being offended by just about everything else, it seems strange that drag still seems to be ok. So I looked more closely and started to feel uncomfortable. Our society currently seemingly is offended by everything except anything that puts women down in some way.

I don't have a problem with men dressing in women's clothes, but when it becomes a deliberate and over the top parody, it now feels offensively sexist.

Maybe times have changed?

Drag
Men copying beautiful women, wearing heavy makeup and clown like clothes. A parody of women.

One area of drag. There are many.

Men can wear dresses and makeup and sing and dance if they want to. If they start telling sexist and offensive jokes etc then call them out individually rather than try and bring down a whole area of entertainment because you don't like a few people.

Fetishistic parody of womanhood.

Yes Dame Edna is great too. Thinking about it, it's the level of reflexiveness that makes it funny or not. Dame Edna isn't entertaining simply because it's a man in a dress (or at least that's not the point), and the greatness of Dame Edna isn't how well she does female performance – it's about incredibly witty writing and the ridiculous extremes of the character and the fact that we know she is not what the creator thinks women are actually like.

Drag is adult entertainment. I do think it is now out of date and I think the comparisons with blackface are valid. I don’t think it should be in the mainstream or anywhere near children as it is and has always been adult entertainment.

The fact that it's women saying they are not offended by drag acts means it's not the same as white men saying Blackface was just for a laugh. It's hard to get offended by Widow Twanky!

The origins of drag come from when in ancient Rome women were not allowed to be actors so all women roles were played by men.. it's such bullshit

There has been some disgusting stuff done in the name of drag. A drag queen play-acting a miscarriage on stage. Another whose drag name is Anna Bortion. Grim.

I’m just wondering how women parodying gay men or drag queens in the same way would be received.

It's disgusting. I don't particularly care if people want to seek it out, but I don't think it should be mainstream entertainment, and I don't like seeing it normalised.

I agree it's punching down.

One of the reasons I think so many people are ok with it, especially young people, is that they believe women are now in every way on a level with men, so it's fair game.

Wasn’t blackface about mocking and demeaning? I’m not really sure what the purpose of drag is and I’m not overly into it (never watched RuPauls drag race) but it appears to be a celebration of women if anything?

I find it gross, unfunny, and above all ridiculously overhyped.
And the current tolerance for it (in fact, the media and everyone else fawning all over it!) shows obvious double standards.

Imagine if a bunch of biological women started dressing up and acting in an over the top fashion, making crude jokes about various bodily functions, all the while pretending to be trans women (for the laughs)? ... Transphobic much? That kind of performance would get them immediately cancelled, I would think?
But a bunch of males doing the exact same thing about females is somehow art, or at least good fun

I feel very torn about this subject.

My degree and MA were in cultural history and I did most of my study on masculine identity - inc marginalised masculine identity such as homosexuals. In 18th century there was a boom in "moll/y houses" which were entertainment clubs of their time where homosexual men could be free to express themselves. This often involved dressing as women and acting out "women's activities (marriage, birth - basically Rituals) "- this wasn't an attack or parody on women it was a rebellion against patriarchal ideals of manhood.

I understand this was a long time ago and society has evolved enormously... However I still believe there is a huge element of this in drag culture. I think if you spoke to drag performers they would say it's a rejection of masculine identity and a desire to embrace feminine. Obviously this is problematic as they tend to embody a very reductionist portrayal of women which many women dislike.

I don't tend to see drag performers defending any women's rights or discussing their issues - it seems highly centred on the LGBT scene which is a real shame.

It's not for me to say women shouldn't be offended by this, it's a very valid opinion. I guess for me it's not quite so black and white and ultimately it's only going to increase as we move towards an ever gender fluid society (rightly or wrongly).

If you're going down the road of all drag is mocking women, then it is mocking transwomen and it hasn't been taken off air yet

I don't mind Ru Paul's Drag race, its creative, funny and not offensive, but if you go and see live drag acts it's a different story. Again not all are offensive but I think the majority are quite vile about women, especially lesbians. I can't believe someone mentioned the New Romantics! Literally nothing to do with drag at all. Drag Kings again are different, I would say not offensive to men but then I'm not a man to judge. I think lots of people who say they don't mind drag at all may never have been to a drag show and been the brunt of some pretty awful comments. Maybe don't go if you don't like crude 'humour' but it is pretty horrible to women. Is that acceptable? I'm not sure it is really.

standpointmag.co.uk/issues/november-2019/blackface-is-evil-why-isnt-drag/

OP YANBU. The article above sums up my thoughts on drag.

I’m for free speech, but I do notice the double standard here. Women are, as usual, fair game.

[quote Midsommar]@BMW6 why are we bringing race into this? It is irrelevant.
In my opinion (and everyone is entitled to their own opinion despite what Mumsnet would have us believe) drag is not offensive and many, many people enjoy it as an art form and entertainment. I appreciate their make up and clothes they design. I think it is quite impressive really, I am useless at makeup...[/quote]
You've stated that Drag is not offensive, maybe not to you. I find it massively offensive, misogynistic, sexist and cruel.
I think that drag is fucking awful.

Those continuing to say it’s not the same as blackface. Why isn’t it? I haven’t actually seen any real arguments.
It is a member if a privileged group putting on the face of a less privileged one for at best entertainment and at worst ridicule and mickey-taking in the name of entertainment.

Personally I don’t have a problem with it but then I don’t really have an issue with blackface if it’s just someone dressing up as a character who is black. I just can’t stand the hypocrisy of the woke brigade.