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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say if they mandate mask wearing they need to ensure some way for the exempt from masks to prove it?

743 replies

BuffaloCauliflower · 13/07/2020 13:28

I am not anti-masks at all, I can see they are often very useful tools in infection control when used correctly (though it doesn’t seem they are by many people) but as someone ‘officially exempt’ from wearing them - in my case due to asthma - I’m increasingly panicked at the thought they’ll be made mandatory in shops and other places.

I have been able to avoid public transport thankfully due to furlough/wfh but I’ve wanted to shop, help the economy etc. and I fear I’ll have to stay away completely if masks are mandatory because I don’t think my exemption would be believed, or that I wouldn’t have people having a go at me for being out without a mask. I’ve tried many times to wear them and they make my symptoms (already far worse than usual due to pregnancy) ramp up even more. It’s very distressing, especially as it causes coughing, and I’m then removing the mask (touching the mask and my face, definitely not mask best practice) repeatedly to try and regulate my breathing. I’m following all other guidance sensibly, lots of hand washing, keeping my distance from others when out, but all things considered I think I’m more risk to others in a mask than without one should I be carrying CV.

I am very worried that despite being exempt I have no way to prove it to shops or other businesses. I carry my inhalers but that relies on others understanding, the government have previously said there won’t be anything official to prove exemption, though public transport companies have come up with different options (I’ve printed the TfL card just in case, but technically anyone could do this as it’s not verified) I’ve already been told once that someone ‘didn’t agree’ with exemptions to mask wearing and I should basically suck it up. People who want to be mean won’t check for exemption before having a go I’m sure of it.

But at the very least shouldn’t they ensure there’s some official way I could prove my exemption, a letter or card I could apply for from my doctor perhaps, that’s recognisable to others so I’m not at risk of not being believed or being yelled at? There are many people who will be in the some position.

OP posts:
Standardy · 14/07/2020 00:01

Standardy Do you need a translation

No, it just seems bizarre. If you need anyone into your home (I don't regularly to be honest, but if you do fair play), then it's not unreasonable to ask them to wear a mask. If they refuse you don't have to let them in, it's simple. Not sure what point you were trying to make. And yes, I was being sarcastic.

ToBBQorNotToBBQ · 14/07/2020 00:02

If your conditions so bad you cannot wear a mask just stay in. Not worth dieing or infecting others. I have asthma and the cloth masks are not good for me but my work have other ones (dont know what they are called) and they are fine for short times. Have you tried different masks?

ToBBQorNotToBBQ · 14/07/2020 00:05

My sons got autism and I still get him to put his mask on. He doesn't think they are comfortable but they are needed at the moment so he wears it.

SarahBellam · 14/07/2020 00:16

If you hate wearing a mask you’ll REALLY hate wearing a ventilator. Nobody enjoys wearing a mask, nobody is wearing one for a laugh, but if we have healthcare professionals wearing them for 12 hours a day to protect our loved ones, why can’t we wear them for 20 minutes to protect ourselves, Each other, and the people who may end up having to care for us? There was some woman on Twitter shrieking that she hated wearing a mask while visiting her hairdresser, and I just thought, ‘Jesus wept, I know two people who have died from COVID and another two who have been really ill, including one who had had to be signed off work for 6 months because of complications, yet you are moaning about wearing a mask to get your roots done’. It beggars belief. It really does.

HeIenaDove · 14/07/2020 00:22

SarahBellend There are people on here who have disabilities who cannot wear them.. Stop with the discrimination and if you didnt then RTFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HeIenaDove · 14/07/2020 00:24

An asthma attack could kill someone SarahBellend Its the NHS not the NCS!!!

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 14/07/2020 00:30

@ SarahBellam

Ignore the Covidiots anti PPE types! Apart from the very small shielded vulnerable group (who some also happen to have invisible disabilities) all people in England will soon be following the global lead and wear a damn mask or face covering! PPE rules but don’t forget to combine with all other equally important Covid safety and mitigation behavioural norms. Best news this decade so far and it has taken half a year and Scottish inspired common sense to wake up to our relaxed selfish Covid attitude and 50k fatalities! At least now we the former Covidiots always PPE mask wearing, social distancing and hand scrubbing ridiculous minority will like the globe become normal common sense people trying everything to protect ourselves and each other in this ongoing pandemic.

Relief and thrilled that common sense can indeed be common again and Covid has not impacted people’s brains too!

canigooutyet · 14/07/2020 00:30

@ToBBQorNotToBBQ

If your conditions so bad you cannot wear a mask just stay in. Not worth dieing or infecting others. I have asthma and the cloth masks are not good for me but my work have other ones (dont know what they are called) and they are fine for short times. Have you tried different masks?
Years ago we used to have things like this in place. Many in society were sent away because they were "different". If your child had any disability it was assumed you would want them sent off elsewhere to live. Parents used to have to fight to keep their own child in their own home and still access education etc.

And when I say years, this was still practice in some parts of the UK in the 1980's.

The exemptions for those interested include more than asthma btw.

The new enforcement - staff aren't able to enforce it and exemptions in line with public transport will be in place.

This is where things will really kick off. Busybodies demanding the maskless be flung out of shops assuming they weren't barred to begin with.

Anyone else want to bet how long it will be before the police are telling us to leave them out of it again 😂

LangClegsInSpace · 14/07/2020 00:32

If your conditions so bad you cannot wear a mask just stay in.

The Equality Act has not been cancelled because of coronavirus.

HeIenaDove · 14/07/2020 00:33

There is a guy on this thread who has neuralgia What do you suggest he does Magic it away?

And i think its very telling that you mentioned hairdressers and a woman moaning but not pubs who have been completely let off. I smell a big ol" misogynistic rat. Blessed be the fruit!!!!

Still the blokes pissed up and fighting outside my local Wetherspoons will be able to continue the usual Friday night fights without a mask

PestymcPestFace · 14/07/2020 00:34

If you’ve got asthma, you may or may not be able to wear a face mask or covering. It’s a good idea to try one out at home, or on a short walk around the block first. If it feels fine, then you can wear it, and it won’t harm you.
www.asthma.org.uk/advice/triggers/coronavirus-covid-19/what-should-people-with-asthma-do-now/#Facemask

Helena most people with asthma or lung conditions can manage a face covering for limited periods. Not all but most.

Please can people check out reliable information on their condition from the many dedicated charities or a HCP.

LangClegsInSpace · 14/07/2020 00:34

RTFT SarahBellam, your dodgy ventilator analogy has been discussed already.

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 14/07/2020 00:50

I made a decision while i was in the bath. DH and i rent from a housing association and should anyone from said HA want to enter our flat and that includes the HO........they will have to wear a mask.

I would imagine they would have to anyway. I used to work in a field that involved home visits, all my ex colleagues have worked throughout out lockdown wearing masks.

Buttercup77 · 14/07/2020 02:33

[quote LangClegsInSpace]@Buttercup77 - I have a legal background and I think (but could be wrong) that this is very unlikely to fall under the disability discrimination act. I think people are forgetting that wearing a mask is not solely for the wearers benefit but for the collective benefit of society during a pandemic. The mask isn’t just to protect you from getting Covid but to protect other people if it is indeed the case that you yourself have it.

Your legal background must have been a while ago, it's been the Equality Act for 10 years now.

A blanket 'no mask - no entry' rule with no exceptions would amount to unlawful indirect disability discrimination.

Indirect discrimination is where you have the same rule/way of doing things for everyone but it disproportionately disadvantages people with a certain protected characteristic - in this case disability.

Indirect discrimination can be lawful if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, which I think is what you are suggesting.

There is no doubt that preventing the spread of covid is a legitimate aim but a blanket rule with no exceptions cannot be considered a proportionate means of achieving it.

This is because face coverings are one tool among many that can make a small but significant difference. They can help make a bigger difference in combination with all the other measures but on their own they are not a gamechanger.

OTOH a blanket face-covering rule would completely exclude many disabled people from accessing goods and services, including public transport, altogether. That's a game changer.

So it's not proportionate and it's not lawful.

Providers of goods and services have a legal duty to provide reasonable adjustments for disabled customers and service users. It's a way of mitigating indirect discrimination and enabling as many people as possible to access your goods and services. Exceptions to a 'no mask - no entry' rule for people with disabilities are a reasonable adjustment. Providers that fail to provide reasonable adjustments, either through malice or ignorance, should expect to be sued.

Providers of goods and services are also prohibited from harassing customers and service users. Harassment is any unwanted conduct related to a protected characteristic that violates your dignity, or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for you.

So while it may be reasonable for providers to check whether you have a valid reason to enter their premises without wearing a mask, they should do so in a sensitive manner. None of the people behind you in the Tesco queue or the bus queue have the right to know that you even have a disability, let alone any of the details, and you should not be asked any unnecessary, intrusive questions. A simple statement of 'I have a disability/condition that prevents me from wearing a mask', delivered out of earshot of the rest of the queue, should be enough. If it isn't then OP is right, there must be an official scheme to enable people who can't wear masks to go about their daily business without harassment.

A sign in a shop window can constitute harassment on its own. If you put a sign up saying 'no mask - no entry' or worse, 'no mask - no entry - no excuse' then you are creating exactly the type of environment for disabled people that the Equality Act defines as unlawful harassment.

It doesn't matter if the provider didn't intend to harass disabled people. They might have done what they did with the very best of intentions but the EA says that harassment is any unwanted conduct that has the purpose or effect of ...

So to avoid the danger of being taken to court, providers of goods and services should listen to disabled people when they say that something a provider has done has made them feel intimidated, degraded, or humiliated, or that their dignity has been violated, or that a hostile or offensive environment has been created for them because of something the provider has done. And they should put it right.

And if a lot of people who can't wear masks are saying they will just stay at home and not even attempt to access the goods and services - that they have the same right to as anyone else - because they just can't face the nastiness, then providers need to listen really hard because this is a sign of abject failure on their part.

And if anyone else has a problem with someone not wearing a mask then they should take it up with the service provider, not the other customer.

If there are lots of people not wearing masks despite the stated policy then you may have a genuine complaint but it will be very general - 'why are you letting so many people in without masks?'

If there are few enough people not wearing masks that you have singled out an individual and decided to complain about them then you should be shown the door and not allowed back.

Providers of goods and services have a duty to prevent creating a hostile environment for their customers and service users and if you are part of that environment then they have a duty to not condone your bullshit.

TL;DR: The Equality Act has not been cancelled because of coronavirus.[/quote]
Thank you for your well explained post. I agree. I guess what I was trying to query (badly) was what would happen if say a small business refused to allow a person to come in who didn’t want to wear a mask because of a disability and that customer took the business to court? Under the Act we cannot discriminate but we don’t have a precedent of accommodation for disability adversely affecting others in the vicinity. In such a case the disabled person forgoing the mask increases the level of transmission for another customer. In other words, making reasonable adjustment for the disabled customer here negatively impacts the health, safety and well-being of another customer. Who’s rights would take priority?

I’m only playing devils advocate by just thinking about possibilities but would this not be reasonable grounds for a shop to legally argue if it went to court? Could it set a new judicial precedent as a landmark case? I can’t think of any accommodations at present that we make for disabled people that would negatively impact others (ramps, guide dogs, parking spaces etc.) but in this case, a concession would increase the risk to other customers. I understand exemption cards are legal, I was just wondering that if such a court case did arise, would there not be enough difference in the facts and legal issues to previous discrimination cases that it could pave way to new legislation? Have we had a situation before where making an adjustment for
one person would negatively impact another person (in this case the majority)? Could a store reasonably argue this point if it went to court?

Like I said I have no idea, I was just curious.

Buttercup77 · 14/07/2020 02:46

@LangClegsInSpace just to add... or would this fall under the proportionality argument you stated? Is it the case that making a reasonable adjustment here does not result in a significant enough increase in risk to others as the other customers can essentially protect their own faces thereby mitigating any marginal increase in transmission that may occur from someone else not wearing a mask?

namenotknown · 14/07/2020 03:00

I have severe anxiety due to autism traits, and technically, I would be exempt from wearing. I have a hidden disability lanyard stating exempt from wearing face masks, but these are not very common, and only a few shops recognise them. Unfortunately, I am still panicking because I don't want to disclose my disability to anyone. I have tried getting clarity from the 111 helplines and the government, but they just keep referring me to their websites, which doesn't answer my question. The government is making people stay at home and order online and takeaways.

PhilCornwall1 · 14/07/2020 04:00

Well what a surprise. Wake up to the news it's mandatory as of the 24th.

Can this government look anymore incompetent. Gove trots out and says they won't be, then the less than clever one makes them mandatory.

If they decide to list the conditions that are exempt and what I have isn't on it, that's effectively banned me from shops as I don't particularly want a hundred quid fine from an over zealous plod.

Fairybird · 14/07/2020 04:06

“I can’t think of any accommodations at present that we make for disabled people that would negatively impact others (ramps, guide dogs, parking spaces etc.) but in this case, a concession would increase the risk to other customers. I understand exemption cards are legal, I was just wondering that if such a court case did arise, would there not be enough difference in the facts and legal issues to previous discrimination cases that it could pave way to new legislation? Have we had a situation before where making an adjustment for
one person would negatively impact another person (in this case the majority)? Could a store reasonably argue this point if it went to court?”

@Buttercup77 I was thinking about this too. I could totally see this happening in this country. Only a matter of time. Some lady dragged to court because she had a sign up disallowing people entering her boutique without a mask in order to protect her and her customers. What happens when inacting the equality act hurts someone else? Does the right of a person to shop without a mask because it causes them discomfort outweigh the right of another person to shop as safely as possible without increased risk of catching anything? What if it effects the store owners footfall and costs her business? What if allowing one person into her clothes boutique without a mask causes 10 others to leave because they don’t feel safe? Hmm

AgentProvocateur · 14/07/2020 04:29

@Fairybird, good point. I’m not in the U.K., and everyone wears a mask here in public; at the shops, in the office, on transport & taxis; and when the schools go back, in school.

My brother is in Scotland where it’s mandatory in shops, but he walked out of shops yesterday because there were people not wearing masks and he didn’t feel safe. It’s very hard to accommodate everyone’s rights.

Bluegrass · 14/07/2020 06:26

Presumably anyone who doesn’t like a mask covering their mouth will use a clear plastic face shield instead?

Yellownotblue · 14/07/2020 06:58

I’m sure there is a small number of people who genuinely cannot wear masks because of disabilities or medical conditions.

But I’m also convinced that there are a lot of people, including on this thread, who claim they can’t wear masks, when in fact they could wear them if they trained themselves to, with breathing exercises and/or therapy to desensitise themselves or deal with PTSD.

I would urge the latter group to do everything they can to get used to masks. This pandemic is not going away. It may be a very long time until masks are not required anymore, and even when they do, there may well be other viruses and other pandemics that will require them again.

What is required is a mindset change, where masks become as normal an item of clothing as shoes - you wear them whenever you go out.

Also please get your children used to them, it’s very easy, millions of kids in the world already wear them every day.

GreytExpectations · 14/07/2020 07:02

Well news has been announced, mandatory face coverings (note, coverings, not masks) in all shops across UK from 24th July, with a fine for those not complying. But they have said there are exemptions for disabilities which of course is reasurring but with no way of proving it the piss takers who don't have a reason will get away with it.

GreytExpectations · 14/07/2020 07:07

If they decide to list the conditions that are exempt and what I have isn't on it, that's effectively banned me from shops as I don't particularly want a hundred quid fine from an over zealous plod.

There will likly be medical advice and research into which conditions are exempt so if yours isn't on there then there will be a good reason. Also, retail staff sadly can't enforce it and will likly have to deal with abuse from customers who refuse to comply because they don't feel its "nessesary" and its unlikely the police will be called with every single customer who refuses so I'm sure you and unfortunately many others will get away with not wearing the face covering and not protecting others. I feel bad for the clinically high risk people.

breathingok · 14/07/2020 07:08

I can’t see exemption working
Not when I’ve been abused for using the seats on buses and trains and for having a blue badge. Total strangers expecting me to justify myself and give them my medical history .....
Filming if you ignore them .....
It’s just going to be the same isn’t it I can’t see it being a case of
Shop staff ‘can you wear a mask please?’
Me ‘sorry I’m actually exempt’
Shop staff ‘oh ok no problem’

GreytExpectations · 14/07/2020 07:13

My issue is there will be many people who abuse the exemptions. People who could wear a face covering but just don't want to and will easily be able to say they have a medical reason. With no card or system in place they will get away with it. It's ridiculous the lack of care for other people this country has. Masks and coverings protect others but of course nobody wants to comply with that.