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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say if they mandate mask wearing they need to ensure some way for the exempt from masks to prove it?

743 replies

BuffaloCauliflower · 13/07/2020 13:28

I am not anti-masks at all, I can see they are often very useful tools in infection control when used correctly (though it doesn’t seem they are by many people) but as someone ‘officially exempt’ from wearing them - in my case due to asthma - I’m increasingly panicked at the thought they’ll be made mandatory in shops and other places.

I have been able to avoid public transport thankfully due to furlough/wfh but I’ve wanted to shop, help the economy etc. and I fear I’ll have to stay away completely if masks are mandatory because I don’t think my exemption would be believed, or that I wouldn’t have people having a go at me for being out without a mask. I’ve tried many times to wear them and they make my symptoms (already far worse than usual due to pregnancy) ramp up even more. It’s very distressing, especially as it causes coughing, and I’m then removing the mask (touching the mask and my face, definitely not mask best practice) repeatedly to try and regulate my breathing. I’m following all other guidance sensibly, lots of hand washing, keeping my distance from others when out, but all things considered I think I’m more risk to others in a mask than without one should I be carrying CV.

I am very worried that despite being exempt I have no way to prove it to shops or other businesses. I carry my inhalers but that relies on others understanding, the government have previously said there won’t be anything official to prove exemption, though public transport companies have come up with different options (I’ve printed the TfL card just in case, but technically anyone could do this as it’s not verified) I’ve already been told once that someone ‘didn’t agree’ with exemptions to mask wearing and I should basically suck it up. People who want to be mean won’t check for exemption before having a go I’m sure of it.

But at the very least shouldn’t they ensure there’s some official way I could prove my exemption, a letter or card I could apply for from my doctor perhaps, that’s recognisable to others so I’m not at risk of not being believed or being yelled at? There are many people who will be in the some position.

OP posts:
Dinosauratemydaffodils · 17/07/2020 13:05

I don't know why so many Brits seem desperate to weasel out of wearing them.

Or possibly you are only seeing those who can wear them? I've tried several, I haven't found one I can cope with so I'm not going anywhere they are mandatory. Where I live that's shops, doctors and public transport. Those things aren't an option for me at the moment even though I really need something from the doctors. If it became anywhere outside, I wouldn't leave the house.

I'd much prefer being able to wear one of the stupid things.

Fuckinellitsme · 17/07/2020 13:46

@Durgasarrow

I live in a part of the U.S. where it is mandatory to wear masks in stores and to have them when out in public. And absolutely every single person, child and adult (over 2) seems to manage just fine. If they don't feel comfortable with masks, they can wear face shields. This disease can be carried by asymptomatic carriers and it is deadly. I don't know why so many Brits seem desperate to weasel out of wearing them.
Lots of people are unable to wear face shields.

Lots of people are exempt.

canigooutyet · 17/07/2020 15:21

America have exemptions, one of the big issues over there seems to be fraudulent cards.

Tbh the only people I really hear moaning over here are the ones saying wear a mask or stay at home.

Those who cannot wear them are told their reasons are ridiculous, do as you are told wear a mask or stay indoors.

Some even go on to make ridiculous claims that every country has it mandatory for all, yet you go look at info from that country and oh look, it's the exemption list.

Some even mention the word exemption and off they go - your just looking to find a loophole, wear a mask or stay at home.

Mention the pesky Equality Act when people with exemptions are ignored. because these things still exist - just looking for loopholes.

Section 6 of the Equality Act for those who are interested to know how a disability is determined in law. If you have a disability or MH read the law and ask yourself if you are exempt or not. It is not down to the ideals of others to decide how you then follow the guidelines.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/6

Ok yes a fine. Yes the only way to say no I don't accept is to go to court. If you know you are legally protected then why should you let the judgements of others dissuade you?

If I am stopped and fined I will be going to court because why should I cough up money for something when no crime has been committed? The guidelines state I don't have to provide evidence to prevent a fine. The guidelines say I am exempt because.. The Equality Act determines what this is. The Transport Act or whatever it's called, also uses Section 6.

Yea yea I know. Stop trying to find loopholes, wear a mask or stay at home. But on a serious note, read the Acts and follow the guidelines for you that allow you to get some semblance of "normality". Between now and then ask your local stores what their policy will be, just make it a general question about a relative who is really concerned or something because of media saying they won't be let in.

Local Sainsbury manager laughed when I asked.
Why wouldn't we, not like we have to wear them. Can only ask for anything from customers for age restricted stuff, and too busy to call the police to deal with it. Ok we say no entry they will take their money elsewhere, exempt or not. Bad for business. That is store policy from one manager.

LangClegsInSpace · 17/07/2020 15:44

A lot of that reads like a very strange misrepresentation of my posts on another thread canigooutyet Hmm

Cadent · 17/07/2020 15:46

I don't know why so many Brits seem desperate to weasel out of wearing them.

I don’t know why so many non-Brits give a shit about the minority who say they don’t want to wear one, especially when their own President was urging people to drink or inject bleach as a cure.

canigooutyet · 17/07/2020 16:11

Nothing to do with any other thread @LangClegsInSpace just responding to the "why is everyone moaning here". And I gave a list of examples of those who are moaning from my experience from previous posts in this thread.

The various Acts and guidelines have also been previously mentioned in this thread, although Article 6 hadn't been until now. Since one of the common themes seems to about providing evidence to determine if you have an acceptable disability/MH I thought maybe it would be good for people to understand the legal explanation. I mentioned my stance that IF I get a fine, damn right I am not paying it for doing something legally. Then about the stance a local supermarket has taken.

If this was based on anything said on a different thread, I would post something there. I could c&p that post and repeat myself on another thread so that conversation can progress or indeed you can c&p it there.

LangClegsInSpace · 17/07/2020 17:05

Since one of the common themes seems to about providing evidence to determine if you have an acceptable disability/MH I thought maybe it would be good for people to understand the legal explanation.

But you are not accurately explaining the law!

You do not need to have a disability as defined under s6 of the EA to be exempt from wearing a mask.

AND

Not everybody who has a disability as defined under s6 of the EA will be exempt.

Here are the public transport regs: www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/592/part/2/made

We can assume that the regs for shops will be pretty much the same. You need a 'reasonable excuse' not to wear a mask and they provide a non-exhaustive list of examples, including -

(a) P cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering—

(i) because of any physical or mental illness or impairment, or disability (within the meaning of section 6 of the Equality Act 2010(7)), or

(ii) without severe distress;

The important part here is cannot put on, wear or remove a face covering. That could be because of a disability (as defined in the EA) or it could be because of a physical or mental illness or an impairment that does not fall under the EA definition of disability, or it could be because it would cause you severe distress, even in the absence of a disability, illness or impairment.

And if you have a disability that does not prevent you from putting on, wearing or removing a face covering then that would not be a 'reasonable excuse' and it would do you no good to point to s6 of the EA.

LangClegsInSpace · 17/07/2020 17:25

The Equality Act is important in situations where shops have blanket 'no mask - no entry - no exceptions' rules because this would disproportionately affect disabled people. Even though lots of disabled people can wear masks and lots of people are exempt but do not have a disability, there will be a large overlap between disabled people and those with an exemption.

So failure to allow entry to those who are exempt would be indirect disability discrimination and a failure to make reasonable adjustments. I think it was this thread I discussed this on earlier - I've lost track a bit Confused

NOW it would be important whether you had a disability as defined under s6 of the EA because if you did, and this was the reason for your exemption (i.e. why you could not wear a mask), then you could take legal action against the shop for discrimination.

If you had an exemption for another reason that was not to do with a protected characteristic then you could not bring a claim for discrimination.

canigooutyet · 17/07/2020 17:30

How am I misinterpreting the law?
When I posted

Section 6 of the Equality Act for those who are interested to know how a disability is determined in law. If you have a disability or MH read the law and ask yourself if you are exempt or not. It is not down to the ideals of others to decide how you then follow the guidelines.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/6

I then said

Ok yes a fine. Yes the only way to say no I don't accept is to go to court. If you know you are legally protected then why should you let the judgements of others dissuade you?

You are also forgetting this exemption.

if putting on, wearing or removing a face covering will cause you severe distress How do you even proof this? Which is why people in this thread have suggested countless ID systems for the exempt.

All this talk about pay up or else will be causing undue stress on some people. So I suggest rather than listening to a load of armchair wanna be read the Corona Act, and other acts like transport who have linked the Section 6 in.

I just thought maybe unlike the wanna be doctors on here who are shouting well I have X so wear the mask, they can look at the legal definition. If they aren't sure they can make their own enquiries to verify this.

Once they have established if they fall under the legal definition, it is down to them to make that choice if they want to wear one or not. Which is it because they would be exempt.

So to sum up - Read Corona Act, Read Transport Act, Read Section 6 of Equality Act, then follow the guidelines that meet your requirements within the law.
If you get a fine you either pay or court. and I'm sure people can go further to search this process in great detail.

Oh and one final thing, if some random wants to know what is wrong, you don't have to disclose. (not my interpretation, it's in the guidelines)

HeIenaDove · 17/07/2020 18:41

More shaming of someone on the bus while knowing diddly squat about them

twitter.com/JD5665/status/1284147648618991618?s=20

HeIenaDove · 17/07/2020 18:42

Mike Mcdonnell
@mikemcdonnell64
·
2h
@MattHancock
Hello. Matt. Nice. Too. Meet you. As. From. Next. Friday. You have to wear. A. Face mask To. Let. You. Know. I suffer epilepsy. Would. I still have to. Wear a face mask or. Don’t. I have to wear one. I got. A. Disability bus pass

Alexei Romanov #NotABot - In a Castle on a Cloud
@AlexeiRomanov13
Replying to
@Anthony10764751

@Merseytravel
and 4 others
reports bus drivers
@arrivanorthwest
continue to abuse passengers in Southport & Liverpool not producing "evidence" of exemption from face mask / covering rule
tho law in England states evidence need only be produced to police officer if requested
please re-iterate this to staff

LangClegsInSpace · 17/07/2020 21:59

How am I misinterpreting the law?

You are telling disabled people that they can choose not to wear a mask even though they could, and that they are exempt, purely because they have a disability as defined by the EA. They are not exempt unless they can't wear a face covering and they risk prosecution, a higher fine and a criminal record if they follow your advice. You are doing nobody any favours.

Can you put on, wear and remove a face covering? - YES or NO

YES - You are not exempt, even if you have a disability as defined by s6 of EA (at least you are not exempt under 4(a) - other 'reasonable excuses' are available).

NO - You are exempt. Could be because of a disability, could be because of illness, could be because it causes you severe distress. It doesn't matter. You are exempt.

And it's really important that people understand that these are not like parking tickets. You can't just appeal.

These are fixed penalty notices issued for a criminal offence as an alternative to prosecution. It's like if you get caught speeding, you either accept the penalty (and the points) or you go to court, and it's a criminal court and you are being tried for a crime. Anybody considering challenging a FPN should seek proper legal advice. If you are found guilty you might have to pay a higher fine and you will have a criminal record.

I'm sorry if this information causes stress to some people but it's really not 'undue'. It's important that everyone understands what their rights are but this includes where their rights stop. Nobody should be finding that out in the middle of being tried for a crime.

Probably there won't be much enforcement but if you are stopped and you say something like 'I don't have to wear a face covering because I have mobility issues that meet the EA definition of disability so I'm allowed to choose' then you should expect a fixed penalty notice and if you push it you should expect to be prosecuted. You would be making it very easy for them.

HeIenaDove · 19/07/2020 17:12

Seen posts like "waiting for all the fakers to claim they are exempt" on a few local pages.

Depressing.

HeIenaDove · 21/07/2020 18:11

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/disabled-scots-lawyer-disgusted-after-22380425?fbclid=IwAR0kTWJTrE-LAf-DL2YN0JXuvl-0tJ8sKWy5z4MsjiXwfRxyrA1gV_VnhUA

Disabled Scots lawyer 'disgusted' after being harassed and refused entry to shops without face mask
Daniel Donaldson has hidden disabilities and says he has been taken aback by the treatment he has received on the street from strangers

A disabled Scots lawyer claims he has been regularly harassed and abused by strangers for not wearing a face mask in shops.

Daniel Donaldson has hidden respiratory disabilities and is exempt from wearing a mask.

The 40-year-old, who is a disability rights lawyer, says he has been left ‘disgusted’ by the discriminatory treatment directed towards him and others who are permitted to not wear a face covering in public.

He claims he has been confronted by strangers, subjected to vile verbal attacks and refused entry into stores since face masks were made mandatory in shops in Scotland on July 10.

Daniel told the Daily Record: “I have hidden disabilities and underlying medical conditions and therefore I am exempt from wearing a mask.

“However I have been utterly taken aback at the treatment I, and others in similar situations, have experienced since they were made compulsory two weeks ago.

We are being discriminated against and refused access to shops on some occasions, and that is just not acceptable.

“I’m disgusted.

“Just last week I was stopped in John Lewis by a customer who demanded to know where my mask was.

“I said I am exempt and then a further explanation was demanded, to which I told the person to ‘p* off’ because it’s a breach of my privacy.

"Face masks affect my breathing. This raises my respiration. This increases my heart rate. This causes distress. To wear this, I need to take diazepam. In addition to the regular medications, and liquid steroids to help keep my airways open

Daniel also slammed the Scottish Government for “rushing through” confusing legislation to enforce the new rule.

He added: “The problem is, the Scottish Government published this law three hours before it was introduced.

“There was no consultation with disability groups, no taking into account how it would affect them.

"The guidance is confusing, and doesn't make it clear that we don't need medical evidence to prove we are exempt."

Daniel, from Glasgow, says he was desperate to get out and about after being cooped up at home since the end of February.

He has been relishing the easing of restrictions but was not prepared for the amount of people who would challenge him in the street or in shops over his lack of PPE.

Daniel said: “I’m not jumping on the anti-face mask bandwagon here, I just believe people with disabilities who are exempt have the right not to be harassed going about their lives.

“Disabled people are not lepers, we are not going out there to spread the virus, and if staff and other customers are wearing their face masks, they have nothing to worry about, they are protected.

“So I’m just trying to raise a bit of awareness as we all try to get back to a bit of normality because it has been a lonely time for all of us and it’s not fair that some are feeling worry about finally getting to go into shops.”

Daniel, who runs the Disability Law Centre in Glasgow, has been using his organisation’s Facebook page to raise awareness and call shops out for discriminatory treatment.

He has also stepped in when he has witnessed harassment of others.

He added: “I have intervened in a number of incidents and I try to help as much as I can.

“Last week a security guard at a shop in Glasgow was trying to stop a young girl from entering because she didn’t have a mask, even though she was explaining why she couldn't wear one.

“He was intimidating her and I was not happy with his tone to this young girl, another woman said it was disgusting, so I took it up with management and they apologised profusely.

“But we can’t be there to see all these incidents unfold.”

Proof of exemption is also not a suitable solution to the issue, according to Daniel.

He said: “Things like exemption lanyards or so called medical evidence will not work.

“If you put a lanyard on, it’s like putting a big disability sticker on you forehead.

“All we can do for now is raise awareness because the system right now is not working.

“It makes me wary to go out but I will continue to live my life and try to help others do the same.”

A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “As the First Minister has said, no one should be abused or treated in an unacceptable way and those exempt under the regulations should not be made to wear a face covering or denied access to shops.

"Retailers can ask people to wear a face covering, but should be understanding when people tell them they are exempt and we do not expect staff to enforce the wearing of face coverings.

“The guidance on the use of face coverings by the public is contained in the Phase 3 Staying Safe and Protecting others guidance on the Scottish Government website.

This makes clear that it may not be appropriate for those who have a health condition or for disabled people to wear a face covering.

“For those who are not exempt, it is now mandatory to wear a face covering on public transport and in shops or other retail outlets, and we expect face coverings to be worn when in an enclosed public space where it is difficult to maintain two metres physical distance and where there is a risk of close contact with multiple people you do not usually meet.”

Find out more about Daniel's campaign to promote awareness of hidden disabilities here

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/07/2020 18:23

Disabled people are not lepers, we are not going out there to spread the virus, and if staff and other customers are wearing their face masks, they have nothing to worry about, they are protected.

Well that's just simply not true. People wearing masks are protecting others, not themselves.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/07/2020 18:29

So which conditions would the be? As others have tried saying, asthmatics should be wearing them despite globally medical advice says no. Adhd, Autism and countless others have been disputed. I can personally think of people with CP who will and won't be wearing one because of their reasons.

So I have Crohn's disease and inflammatory arthritis - I meet the EA definition of having disabilities. However, those conditions do not prevent me from wearing a mask, therefore I need to wear a mask. I can't Sony claim "I'm disabled, I don't need to wear a mask".

In order to be exempt you need to have a condition, either physical or mental, that affects your ability to put one on, wear one or wearing one causes you distress. That could be a disability, but isn't necessarily.

HeIenaDove · 25/07/2020 17:10

www.disabilitynewsservice.com/coronavirus-fears-over-face-covering-hate-crime-as-new-laws-go-live/

Coronavirus: Fears over ‘face covering hate crime’ as new laws go live
By John Pring on 23rd July 2020
Category: Crime

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Disabled people have raised serious concerns about the rising tide of coronavirus-related disability hate crime, amid fears that this could increase even further when new laws on the wearing of face coverings go live tomorrow.

From tomorrow (Friday), it will be compulsory to wear a face covering in shops and supermarkets in England.

Many disabled people are exempt, the government has made clear.

But despite those exemptions, many disabled people who cannot wear face coverings have already been subjected to disability-related hostility online and while travelling on public transport, where it is already compulsory – except for those with exemptions – to wear a face covering.

Stephen Brookes, a former coordinator of the Disability Hate Crime Network and now an ambassador for Disability Rights UK, has written to key figures in government, the police, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and disability organisations about his concerns on “mask hostility”.

He says in his letter: “In my 12 years of dealing with disability hate crime up to June 2018, it was clear that abuse of disabled people has always been problematic at times of tension, but we are now in uncharted territory, which is supported by examples we are seeing at all levels.”

Brookes (pictured, left), who is also the minister for disabled people’s rail sector champion, although he was not speaking in that capacity, added: “We must both re-assure and support disabled people in terms of real hostility and remind perpetrators that verbal abuse can still be recognised as a potential hate crime and as such will not be tolerated.

“Can we all take stock and ensure that disabled people are not bullied out of any normal life we should be able to expect, and remind the public and those who affect our lives that the added pressure of fear should not be added to an already difficult situation.”

He has also now raised concerns about comments made during a radio interview yesterday (Wednesday) by the Metropolitan police’s commissioner, Cressida Dick.

Asked about customers who were refusing to wear masks in shops, she told LBC: “My hope is that the vast majority of people will comply, and that people who are not complying will be shamed into complying or shamed to leave the store by the store keepers or by other members of the public.”

Brookes said: “This statement by Met chief Cressida Dick is most seriously unhelpful, and potentially could lead to hostility and hate crime against those who can’t wear face masks.

“She needs to change and clarify that view most urgently.”

Last week, Fazilet Hadi (pictured, centre), head of policy for Disability Rights UK, called on the government to recognise the need for “balanced messaging” on face coverings, including “that some disabled people cannot wear face coverings and that this should be respected”.

She told the minister for disabled people, Justin Tomlinson, in a letter: “If the messaging doesn’t change, millions of disabled people will not be able to safely leave their homes.

“For those of us that do, we will experience fear, anxiety, possible conflict with public and police and demands to prove our impairment/illness.”

Inclusion London is the lead organisation for the London DDPO Hate Crime Partnership, working with 20 Deaf and disabled people’s organisations (DDPOs) across the capital.

During the coronavirus crisis, it has been running a weekly survey of DDPOs that run hate crime advocacy services on the incidence and types of hate crime disabled people have experienced during lockdown, and now it is being eased.

Its latest weekly survey found 62 per cent of DDPOs reported an increase in disability hate crime referrals on the previous week.

Among the trends, Inclusion London has seen a rise in disability hate crime by neighbours of disabled people, and an increase in cases of disabled people being spat at while out in public because of the mistaken idea that disabled people are “virus spreaders”.

There has also been an increase in online hate crime, with disabled people “told that their lives are inferior and [that they] are taking up resources from non-disabled people”.

Disabled people have also reported being targeted while shopping if they have personal assistants or carers with them or if they need priority in shopping queues.

Inclusion London said: “Disability hate crime during the coronavirus pandemic has not come from nowhere – the image of disabled people as virus spreaders and taking resources from non-disabled people must be tackled.”

It added: “The core belief that disabled people’s lives are of less value than non-disabled people must be continually challenged through working closely with DDPOs.”

Another to have become concerned about online disability hate crime is disabled campaigner Victoria Langley.

She said she had been told on social media that disabled people like her should be locked inside until there was a vaccine because they “are more likely to catch it and pass it on”.

One nurse told her on Instagram that all those not wearing masks should be forced to sign away their rights to health equipment and treatment by health professionals who are “risking their lives because of you”.

Another woman told her on Instagram: “Trees are awesome and worth sobbing over.

“Bus drivers getting killed because they’re doing their job are worth sobbing over, people who don’t wear a mask because they are disabled, not worth sobbing for.

“I looked at your profile, you seemed fine???”

Langley said she found the widespread hostile comments on social media “scary” as a disabled person.

She said: “It’s made me petrified to go out.

“I’m scared to go out because people are not just being hostile, they do not care that being disabled makes it hard.

“I feel totally scared and boxed in with zero support.

“The government are ending all support and saying go out, but the general public want us locked in. I feel helpless and scared.”

Disabled researcher, author and campaigner David Wilkin (pictured, right) has been collecting examples of disabled people who have been subjected to disability-related hostility linked to the government’s COVID-19 regulations.

Wilkin, the lead coordinator of the Disability Hate Crime Network, has already collected more than 50 such cases.

One disabled passenger on public transport, who cannot wear a face covering, was targeted by another passenger, who shouted: “This person hasn’t got a mask. This person is trying to infect us. They are trying to kill us.”

A disabled train passenger who did not have a face mask because of breathing difficulties was confronted by another passenger, who refused to listen to their explanation, took a spare mask out of their pocket and forced them to put it on.

Wilkin said: “They were under so much pressure that they put the face mask on and left the train.

“They felt that was the only way to placate the offender.”

Wilkin said he was concerned there would be further cases when the ban in shops and supermarkets comes into force tomorrow.

He said: “It’s definitely a concern. It’s bad enough to be grounded because you don’t want to use public transport, but you have to eat.

“The general concern is that the government, while they have delivered clear messages about face coverings… are not making the same number of messages about the exemptions.

“That is causing real problems.”

But he said he believed the government and public bodies were listening, as he has online meetings next week with both the Cabinet Office and CPS.

A CPS spokesperson told Disability News Service (DNS): “The law exempts those who cannot put on or wear a face covering because of physical or mental illness or impairment, or disability while using public transport.

“The same exemption will apply when face coverings become mandatory in shops.

“Our updated guidance to prosecutors will make this clear.

“If disabled people are victims of hate crime as a result then the CPS won’t hesitate to prosecute perpetrators if our legal test is met.”

Deputy chief constable Mark Hamilton, hate crime lead for the National Police Chiefs’ Council, told DNS in a statement: “We understand that many disabled people, and particularly those with ‘hidden’ disabilities, could be worried about being challenged by others if they are not wearing face coverings in a setting that requires it.

“Government guidelines set out a number of exemptions to the wearing of masks, including on grounds of disability.

“Some external organisations have developed ways to indicate that an individual is exempt, such as wearing badges.

“The government and the police have developed extensive guidance on these requirements, and police officers across the country have received training on how to recognise where an individual may have an exemption due to disability.”

He added: “Any disabled person who is victim of hate crime should report it to the police by either calling 999 (in an emergency) or 101.

“Additionally, you can report crime online at True Vision (report-it.org.uk). True Vision also contains helpful information and guidance materials on disability hate crime and COVID-19

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