To see where this dad is coming from? RE little boy wearing make up

[Earlyrisers0]

It's on a parenting group on Facebook. I'm happy to post it to squash any concerns that I'm trolling, but I will have to blur out the boys face for obvious reasons.

A mum has made a post showing a heated exchange with her ex. Their 9 year old son went to his dad's wearing make up and nail varnish and the dad told him to remove it all. Not that it makes much of a difference but the make up wasn't applied properly, think red lipstick smeared around his mouth and chin and what looks like black eyeshadow smudged around his eyebrows.

The mum also attatched to the post a handful of pictures of their son wearing dresses, pink pyjamas with pink dummys in his mouth and my littly pony onesies.

The mum said if her ex continued to tell him he can't express himself then he'll grow to hate his dad. The dad said she shouldn't be imposing her values and beliefs onto him and he will parent his child how he sees fit when he has him. The dad clearly thinks the boy is far too young to be experimenting with gender identity and I have to say I agree with him.

I'm clearly old fashioned but am I unreasonable?

@Earlyrisers0

If he'd badly painted himself to look like a clown or batman or whatever id want to clean it off

Unfortunately this is pretty much how it looked.

Coupled with his hair tied into a straight pony tail sticking up at the front of his hair.

It looked awful.

Reckon it was meant to be a "horn"? Lots of MLP characters have horns eg Twilight Sparkle.

Children constantly experiment with their self expression and sense of self.

You are imposing your values and ideals on a kid by suggesting it’s anything more than normal experimentation and self expression.

I don't think his hair was supposed to look like a horn, he wasn't wearing MLP in that particular photo

My DB used to play with my make up when he was little (there's a 10 year age gap between us) and it certainly went on till he was 9, as that's how old he was when I left home. He used to paint his nails, too, and loved Danny La Rue on tv.

He never had gender ID issues (not that they were a really a thing in the 70s) and grew up perfectly at home with being male.

The mother putting up photos (with dummy!) on FB is disturbing. It's drawing the wrong kind of attention to her son, which then gets her the attention she's craving. She's putting her son up on a social chopping block. Weird. It all sounds weird.

It sounds fetishistic tbh. Pink pyjamas and dummies? And why was she photographing the child in this outfit? I’d be concerned enough to report to SS.

I should add, he can do what he likes. It's the mum's attention-seeking behaviour that's damaging. Just let him crack on with it. No need to turn it into a bunfight with her ex and no need to paste photos all over FB. She's allowing her son to be harshly judged and criticised.

@Davodia

It sounds fetishistic tbh. Pink pyjamas and dummies? And why was she photographing the child in this outfit? I’d be concerned enough to report to SS.

Lots of people photograph their children in pj’s

It’s not ideal parenting but It’s not SS worthy.

Impossible to say who is being unreasonable without more backstory. Maybe the mother really is trying to make the boy feminine (wanted a girl, or is trying to 'trans' her son for some reason) and the father is well aware of that. Maybe it was just silly dress-up for a laugh and the father is a knuckle-dragging 'nail varnish will turn my boy gay' type. Either way, the arguing over it is terrible for the child.

I’m a part of the same mum group and seen the same post.
She wasn’t imposing her beliefs she was letting him do and wear what he has specifically asked for.
The dad was against the boy wearing nail varnish as he thinks it’s wrong, the boy loves it, he’s 9 if he wants to wear it then let him.
YABU

Telling a boy they can play with makeup if they want isn't imposing beliefs.
Telling a boy they absolutely can't play with make up certainly is.

It's funny how these things are only assumed to be forced on a child if they go against "gender roles".

I probably wouldn't let my child of either sex play with make up, but I would let them paint their face if they wanted to.

So if this 9 year old boy was a 9 year old girl? Yes I’d say they’d need to clean off the makeup after a time but really does it matter? There is no rules that say only girls can like my little pony, make up and pink?...perhaps he has fun with it. Likely he might grow out of it or he might not, he clearly doesn’t care what people think but putting his pic out there like the mother had, is wrong, he can’t consent to that, her beef is with the dad. Shame for him.

Sounds Like a horrible Environment for the kid, the fact that strangers in the internet know about this is disgusting

Lots of men like MLP

In fact they are called Bronies! (Bro-nees)

Apart from the dummy I wouldn't have an issue with any of that.
Sounds like the mom was letting the child play dress up then sent him to his dads. Ds2 dad is a bit like this. I remember one awful row because ds2 had put dds pink dress up shoes on and was walking around the house. Didnt bother me but his dad hit the roof.
If hes not hurting anyone or getting makeup all over the place let him be a child and have no worries. That's the joy of childhood.

My DS9 likes to wear nail varnish
He's not 'experimenting with gender identity', he's just wearing nail varnish.

The dad sounds like he is overly fixated on stereotypical behaviours and appearances for his DS. He needs to loosen up.
Both parents need to stop performing and arguing on social media.

Everyone is being unreasonable here. Except possibly the dad.

All kids like sparkle and are intrigued by make up and want to play with it. Fine. But 9 is too young for any child to put their own make up on and wear it out the house looking like a clown. So she wasnt being unreasonable to let him play with it in the house but is being unreasonable to send him to his dads with it on, when he might have had plans to go straight out, might not have make up remover etc. And is being massively unreasonable to post their private argument, about their son, all over social media.

I think the dad is being unreasonable if he is saying 'no make up, you're a boy' but we don't know if he said that. If he thinks the mum is pushing the boy into wearing makeup when he is not bothered about it for example then he is not being unreasonable.

You are being unreasonable because firstly you don't know the situation. The boy might have begged and begged to wear it and refused to take it off. The mum might be forcing him to when he is not keen. The dad might have strict rules on what boys do or girls do that is making his son completely miserable if he is being forced to do activities or hobbies he isnt interested in, or play with toys he doesnt like, or wear clothes he hates, and the mum might be furious that her son is upset. Or he might be trying to protect the boy from his mum who has decided she wants to raise a gender neutral child and has changed his name and refers to him as 'they' against his wishes.

Without knowing the family dynamics it's all pure speculation.

And YABU for thinking that wearing make up is experimenting with gender. You can be a boy and wear make up. You can be a girl and play football. Boys and girls can do things that society for some random historical reasons, are generally done by the other sex, without wanting to be that other sex or do everything like that other sex. I played a 'male' sport and drink 'male' drinks. I don't want to be a man, and I also wear make up and dresses. It's just clothes and a bit of stuff on my face to stop me looking so tired. That's all.

The dad clearly thinks the boy is far too young to be experimenting with gender identity and I have to say I agree with him.

What? You think as the child is a boy, doing anything other than wearing/ playing with stereotypically 'male' things is "experimenting with gender identity"? All my sons have played with my makeup at one time or another, the youngest made a beeline for the princess dresses in the dressing up box whenever his cm took him to Tuesday playgroup, my eldest went through a stage he found it hilarious to find my bras and put one on and parade around the house shouting about having breasts, etc etc etc. None of them were experimenting with gender identity. None of them have ever expressed a desire to be a girl, or said they were a girl, or anything similar.

Can we not just let kids play with and wear whatever the hell they want to? A male child wanting to wear pink clothes and makeup is a male child wanting to wear pink clothes and makeup, not someone experimenting with gender identity.

He isn't experimenting with gender, he's playing dress up

ThIs ^

And also

This v v v v v

Either sex child with red lipstick, filled in eyebrows and a dummy is a bit iffy.

Surely allowing a nine year old to wear make up is just bad parenting regardless of the child’s sex or how well the make up is applied? This has nothing to do with exploring gender, it’s just weird (and terrible for skin).

I wouldn't let my child out of the house with makeup smeared everywhere regardless of boy or girl.
As for the other stuff: sounds like mother has an axe to grind against the father and wants her 5 minutes of fame.

9 year old don’t play dress up!!

Of course they do!!

Children who are palying dressing up are exploring and experimenting with adult roles. They're finding out about the world by pretending to be the adults they see around them. Sometimes they take on male roles and sometimes female. That doesn't mean they are choosing to be a particular gender or predicting their own future.

People who get angry or upset about this exploration are the ones who are imposing their beliefs on the child. They're the ones witht he problem, possibly rooted in being prevented from exploring in a similar way when they were children.

He's far more likely to grow up with a strained relationship with the parent who makes a huge fuss about it than the parent who supports his exploration and has open conversations about gender roles to help him understand how our society works.

If I were the mother, I'd just provide some distraction around the time of contact so the little boy just happens not to wear things that will upset his did whenever possible. However, if he was adamant he wanted to wear something, I'd support him.

I certainly wouldn't have a row like this played out over Facebook. What a dreadful invasion of this child's privacy.

Playing with make up and wearing my little pony onesies, fine for both sexes. Letting 9 yr old go out of the house with full face of make up and using a dummy, not fine for both sexes.

And yes agree with PPs re putting this all on fb, also not fine.

YABU. I saw that thread, and the photos weren't of what he went to his dads like. They were an example of showing how her ds experiments in his own home.
From what I understand, it wasn't a full face of make up, he went to his dads with nail polish on his fingers. The ds said he didn't want to remove it, the dad ignored his son, and removed it anyway.