To mask or not to mask

[coffeewithmilk]

This thread might have some divided opinions

I have been wearing a face covering whenever I go into a shop or enclosed space where I cannot social distance - for example: went to IKEA this morning and put my mask on. I'm really shocked at the amount of people not wearing one.
I would have thought with everything that has happened the last few months that people would be inclined to wear a mask, but it's almost like nothing has happened... and feel like I even get some strange looks when I am wearing one.

Just for context: I'm not in the UK. Currently in ROI.

Do people think they are superior and won't catch anything so they don't bother putting one on?

AIBU with this?

Just would be interesting to know, because I guess if masks are effective they will be effective whether it's flu or any SARS/Corona viruses like the common cold.

Isn't that why there is already a habit of wearing masks in Japan and parts of Asia, Vintage?

@WendyHoused
I am not trying to be goady , mean or unhelpful but ,

Masks are annoying and steam up your specs
Then yours is not fitted properly and will be of no use if you cough or sneeze - to many droplets will escape.

Will a homemade mask prevent the spread of the disease?” Yes
Except yours Won't -see above.

This is the real problem with the present situation: not enough public information on wearing masks correctly .

And sadly why they won't Really help at the moment.

Yes sleepingpup, people do apparently wear them because they believe that it will stop spread and is polite, but my question is is there actually any empirical proof that they do? For example is the rate of seasonal flu always lower in these countries compared to non mask wearing etc. I suppose I would have to dig deep into scientific literature for the answers, one to put on the to do list!

@Fungster

don't believe they are effective and are likely to do more harm than good

What a moronic attitude to have. The "my opinion is as valid as scientific fact

If you are quoting me several pages back , my opinion is based on the reading of many scientific reports from around the world from early on.

I even have an email from HSE to me personally stating the below about homemade masks.

Whilst we appreciate the good-willed intention of those who are making facemasks, these are considered to be Personal Protective Equipment. There are Regulations and Standards which manufacturers have to follow and it is unlikely that home-made PPE will be made to a Standard which offers the wearer protection and may lead to a false sense of security

Yes I am aware that masks protect others and not you

HSE have been very quiet since soon after in fact and I think they are being muffled as their stance did not equate with govt policy on opening up the economy.

Just like the "lets have a 1m not 2m social distancing" was economically and not scientifically driven (primarily by Ian Duncan -Smith), the mask wearing appears to be to.

Fauci in the US was pretty hesitant on the matter too at first when the CTC first pushed it and he emphasised social distancing plus hygiene too. Don't forget the CTC in the US was being led by Pence the Vice President not by a scientist Such as Fauci and it was they the politicians who first pushed mask wearing again to get the economy moving again.

So yes I am sceptical, particularly mask wearing with no information on the safe fitting, wearing and disposal of them .

Handwashing for flu seems to work well.
Not enough for this virus.
Flu is more transmissible when people are symptomatic, which is not quite the case with sars-cov-2.

This is why remembering that they are different viruses helps.

It's irrelevant to know if masks are useful for other viruses that are transmitted in different ways.
It's important to know if they're useful for this virus, which has quite specific characteristics and patterns of transmission.

If you are quoting me several pages back , my opinion is based on the reading of many scientific reports from around the world from early on

Have you been reading the latest ones, though?

CDC (US) website says Flu is transmissible around 1 day before symptoms appear (I know this is shorter period than Covid.)

Also says it can spread to people up to 6 feet away though coughs, sneezes or talking.

So therefore should also be stopped by facemasks?

I mean I'm no expert admittedly, but its just something to think about when mulling over the issue.

@Vintagevixen
Yes an WHO study I think looked at Japan and some other Asian countries and found that mask wearing made no diffeeence to transmission as regards flu and sars in years gone by. It is worth remembering that those countries in the main used track and trace and testing very early which I think was their success.

It is also worth recalling the bbc report from Tokyo in April, where the rate had risen quickly in a city where there was very high compliance with mask wearing but absolutely no social distancing.

CDC (US) website says Flu is transmissible around 1 day before symptoms appear (I know this is shorter period than Covid.)

Exactly. And it peaks during symptoms. The effect of masks end up being small for flu.
Whereas for sars-cov-2 is days and in asymptomatics as well.
There's research that suggests aerosols are also dangerous.

My point is that we are where we are because we thought this virus behaved like the others. It doesn't. So, we better not assume anything from such comparisons.

It's too hot to wear a mask at the moment. If it becomes a legal requirement then obviously I'll do it, but not through choice.

@Lweji

Yes I have . Most Recent ones are based on empirical reports on other reports sometimes omitting the ones that don't back their findings eg the Royal Society one IMO.

Ok I agree you can't Scientifically test the use of masks in this event as 1) too many lives would be at risk if you did so , and
2) there are too many other variables in play such as testing, track and trace, quarantine, lockdowns etc

so the only thing you can do is look at primary evidence from previous serious respiratory outbreaks.

Sadky It has been shown that mask wearing did not reduce sars transmission in previous studies , that it is a cultural thing that has no effect.

This is a month old, so some things may have changed, but it summarises what was known then about this virus:

www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/latest-evidence/transmission

"A systematic review and meta-analysis of 172 observational studies both in healthcare settings and the community, that looked into the effect of distance from the source patient and the use of respiratory and eye protection in the risk of transmission of SARS-CoV, MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2, concluded that physical distancing of at least one metre, use of face masks and eye protection were associated with a much lower risk of transmission [177]. Distances of two metres provided an even larger protective effect and the use of respirators was found to be more protective than medical masks in this review."

@Lweji

My point is that we are where we are because we thought this virus behaved like the others. It doesn't. So, we better not assume anything from such comparisons

That is true, but equally we should not assume that some mitigation is infallible. My biggest concern is that poor mask wearing as I have witnessed ( bearing in mind I am shielding and not going anywhere so that is in the main delivery drivers) will be more harmful than no mask wearing.

www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/mask-slips-as-feelings-of-national-solidarity-fade-into-muddled-messaging-a4496576.html

The government’s mask has slipped as feelings of national solidarity fade into muddled messaging

I have such bad hay fever at the moment that I am so out of breathe wearing them that I had to rest at the top of two flights of stairs. I run 2 times a week, PT twice a week and yoga once a week so it's not my fitness.

That is true, but equally we should not assume that some mitigation is infallible.

Speak for yourself, if you are.
I'm not.

Mask wearing is one measure that can help indoors, with less ventilation, and somewhat less social distancing. And if everyone wears them. Along with other measures like hand washing, and staying at home as much as possible.
Preferably if worn properly, but if everyone is wearing them, then even less optimal use can help.

You'll never see me claim that wearing masks is an "infallible" measure, or enough, or anything similar.

@Lweji

But the previous parargraph highlights an outbreak in South Korea where you would expect those employees to be culturally accustomed to wearing masks although it doesn't say anything about this unfortunately. If they were wearing masks then this would indicate that they were ineffective and that close proximity and use of common surfaces led to the outbreak,

An epidemiological investigation at a call centre in South Korea showed an attack rate of 43.5% among 216 employees on the 9th floor of the call centre indicating high transmission in crowded indoor workplace environment [176]. Most of the infected employees were sitting at the same side of the 9th floor which suggests the influence of proximity, but there was no obvious relation of risk of transmission and distance from the index case on this side of the 9th floor. The authors also conclude that the duration of contact played the most important role in spreading of COVID-19, since the cases were limited almost exclusively to the 9th floor despite interaction with colleagues in other settings (such as the elevators and lobby)
It is not possible to disentangle in these reports the role of physical proximity and direct contact through handshaking, or indirect transmission through contaminated objects and surfaces or longer distance transmission through aerosols. However, they illustrate the risk of transmission in crowded indoor settings and the importance of bundled prevention measures

"But the previous parargraph highlights an outbreak in South Korea where you would expect those employees to be culturally accustomed to wearing masks although it doesn't say anything about this unfortunately. If they were wearing masks then this would indicate that they were ineffective and that close proximity and use of common surfaces led to the outbreak,"

So, why comment on this, instead of reading the one I quoted about the review where such factors are known?

@Lweji
This is where we disagree
Preferably if worn properly, but if everyone is wearing them, then even less optimal use can help

I don't believe that masks worn improperly help at all eg
-Those that don't fit properly and steam up your glasses
-Those worn under the nose
-Those worn under the chin

• Those touched constantly because they slip

-Those discarded into a hedge -Those moist ones stuffed into a bag and then touched many times before they go into the wash.

I suppose I would have to dig deep into scientific literature for the answers, one to put on the to do list!

@Vintagevixen

Given the place the world is I'd of thought such a logical question would have been researched. Or stats available. Not that I've gone looking. But that info definitely feeds into the mask question now.

@Lweji
Ok I have now read the report that the paragraph you quoted is based on. That report in the Lancet In June 2020 was about the use of masks in healthcare settings and looked at the difference between N95 masks and Surgical cloth Masks in healthcare setting where we can at least assume they were being worn correctly. It was not looking at masks worn by the general public.

That report also says Further high-quality research, including randomised trials of the optimum physical distance and the effectiveness of different types of masks in the general population and for health-care workers' protection, is urgently needed

In ROI too. Wearing one every time I'm in shops/where other people are. Don't understand people who choose not to(I said choose, not who can't before I'm jumped on).

@sleepingpup

As I said above this is in a recent Lancet report in June this year that compared medical masks in healthcare settings.
Further high-quality research, including randomised trials of the optimum physical distance and the effectiveness of different types of masks in the general population and for health-care workers' protection, is urgently needed

So yes urgently needed but not done, therefore no scientific basis to policy just hunches