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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that capitalism is shit?

302 replies

malificent7 · 08/07/2020 08:14

Just reading about the clothing sweat shops in Leister where sewing machinists are paid as little as 4.50 an hour and packers £3 an hour. Meanwhile the owner of Boohoo is a billionaire. Plus fast fashion is highly polluting.
This is just one industry. How come so many of us are willing to work for rich capitaliats while we scrape by?
Capitalism is shit isn't it?

OP posts:
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5
KOKOagainandagain · 08/07/2020 17:11

I used to be more optimistic that a transfer of power along the lines of feudalist to bourgeois without a huge amount of conflict would occur due to the fact that new forms of wealth/economic advancement in the context of new technologies were less reliant on transfer from previous generation. But Amazon, Facebook etc just sold out and became the new baddies.

Marx was right when he said (paraphrasing) that capitalism survives because it absorbs threatening kernels and revolutionises itself whilst remaining fundamentally the same.

Hingeandbracket · 08/07/2020 17:16

@DGRossetti

It is not capitalism per se but unrestrained, unregulated capitalism that is the problem. Many (usually powerful and rich) people are terrified of the words 'socialism that they would do anything to make sure we do not have any socialism based policies or ideas as part of our economic system.

Proposition: The US phobia of communism has done far greater harm to the world than communism itself.

agreed.
user1471565182 · 08/07/2020 17:22

China is currently in the developing of capitalism phase of marxism -which the soviet states didnt do. Whther they will go over to more egalitarian ideas (as their ideology says they should) is very much a guess. Communism is supposed to be achieved over a timescale of hundreds of years and leave a situation a lot like anarchism with the state vanishing.

1Morewineplease · 08/07/2020 17:48

I find it very interesting how, when the Berlin Wall came down, so many Russian oligarchs suddenly crawled out of the woodwork to purchase vast swathes of prime city locations around the world and major sports’ teams etc...
And as China is still considered mostly socialist so many properties, private businesses and properties have been purchased by them.

It may do well to speak to older Eastern Europeans and ask them how they felt living behind the Iron Curtain.

Social democracy is aspirational. Communism is totalitarian in it’s practise.

Hopeforall · 08/07/2020 18:32

It may do well to speak to older Eastern Europeans and ask them how they felt living behind the Iron Curtain

In the former GDR provided you fell in with the regime (which might have included reporting on your friends, family and neighbours to the Stasi) then fine.
However, put one foot out of line and you would be in trouble. If you were accused of helping someone escape from the socialist paradise then you could have your children taken from you and put into care.
What happened to those who tried to escape is well known: what is less well known is that the authorities never told the families that their loved one had been shot - they either denied all knowledge of murdering them or let the families believe they’d escaped to the west.
Some succeeded in escaping - via a tunnel, in a hot air balloon, hidden in cars going to the West - but woe betide those who were caught, and anyone accused of aiding and abetting.

mrsBtheparker · 08/07/2020 20:18

DH has just joined the Communist party, and part of his "initiation" was to read a text called Britain's Road to Socialism. I read it too, and it's such a hopeful breath of fresh air.

Most things can be made to look good on paper, the reality is that it has never been successful anywhere because it depends on holding its citizens as prisoners to the ideaology, much as fascism did, the two have/had much in common for the person-in-the street.

MissConductUS · 08/07/2020 23:52

Take plastic bottles and other throwaway items. The capitalist driving this economy relies on plastic bottles to have a short life span so that people buy more plastic bottles etc.

Funny you mention this example. I work with a woman who grew up in Soviet Russia and she was telling me about the soft drink vending machines they had there. There was a drinking glass chained to the machine. You put your coins in, picked the drink you wanted then put the glass under the spout to receive it. When done, you replaced the glass on the shelf for the next customer. Lovely.

We both work in health care. She explained that the only decent pharmaceuticals they received were made in what was then East Germany. The Russian made ones were often vials filled with distilled water or capsules filled with sugar because the state set unrealistic production quotas, so the phony ones were shipped to meet the quota. You had to pay a bribe to get the German meds.

She's now a naturalized US citizen and would never go back, especially with Putin running the show.

wafflyversatile · 09/07/2020 00:00

YANBU.

it's ridiculous to have humans exploited to serve a nebulous non sentient entity as 'the economy' when it should be the other way round. Societal structures should be there to support humans, all humans.

Popjam · 09/07/2020 00:03

Literally just saw this quote from Jacinda Ardern before seeing this post:

"Economic growth accompanied by worsening social outcomes is not success," Ardern said. "It is failure."

So true.

wafflyversatile · 09/07/2020 00:07

Even then we cannot environmentally afford continuous economic growth. Capitalism demands economic growth. It can't continue as it is.

sst1234 · 09/07/2020 00:21

@bgmama

*This - I had a acquaintance from a former Iron curtain country. He had travelled to Western Europe quite a bit. He preferred the cultural experiences (theatre etc) he could get at home to fancy cars/cameras/clothes etc.* Even now, it is much more affordable relatively speaking to go to the opera or the ballet in an ex-communist country than in the UK, where the cheapest ticket for the opera is the equivalent of a day's salary for someone on minimum wage. But it's OK, poor people don't need the opera.
Ah so that’s where capitalism is going wrong. Not enough opera? Who needs food anyway. Or other basic necessities in life. That’s why they tore down the Berlin wall, right? Because the East Germans had simply had too much culture.
user1471565182 · 09/07/2020 00:38

Yep good point on the environment. Our world cannot actually take any more of it, a system built on eternal growth is idiocy. We have to change or die, its that simple. See you on the other side when some of you will still be telling irrelevant cliched 'friend's stories' which try and seriously compare Stalinist Russia, or even better fucking Venuzuela with the modern UK while you're all burning up.

7 out of 10 Russians now see the break up of the soviet Union as 'a bad thing'.

'75% of Russians Say Soviet Era Was 'Greatest Time' in Country’s History'

And George Monbiot on the idiocy of the system we're clinging onto

www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/03/24/75-of-russians-say-soviet-era-was-greatest-time-in-countrys-history-poll-a69735

MangoFeverDream · 09/07/2020 00:39

Well the business owner may well be taking risks ( often with their large wedge of capital) but how much actual hard graft are they doing really?

If it’s so easy, maybe you should run a business then? (It’s not)

user1471565182 · 09/07/2020 00:42

The Ballet and Opera was huge in soviet russia.

LettyBriggs · 09/07/2020 00:59

Nope. Capitalism is great.

AgeLikeWine · 09/07/2020 01:07

We tried socialism in the past, and we found out the hard way that it’s great in theory but it doesn’t work in practice, because politicians and bureaucrats are incapable of running businesses.

I’m old enough to remember the 1970s when the government owned the phone industry, the oil & gas industry, the postal industry, the aviation industry, the electricity industry, the car industry, the water industry, the rail industry etc etc etc.

It was awful. Consumers had little choice other than ‘take it or leave it’. You had to wait months to get a phone line installed. Products and services were crap, prices were high, Unions had far to much power.

Capitalism is very far from perfect, but all the evidence shows that a market economy with strong regulation of workers’ rights, safety standards and environmental protection combined with a progressive, redistributive tax & benefit system and a comprehensive social safety net provides the best outcome for the largest number of people.

Jullyria · 09/07/2020 03:08

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PissedOffProf · 09/07/2020 09:43

sst1234, you are wrong to underestimate the availability of cultural goods to everyone. Access to high culture is access to education. Access to education is access to power.

When I arrived to the West, I was completely shocked at the price of theatre tickets, books and entry to museums. Behind the iron curtain, all these things were available at very low prices to everyone. You could purchase a good quality hardcover book for a price of a few standard loaves of bread (bread was a lot better too, btw, than the plastic sponge fed to the masses in the UK and the US).

High culture in the Soviet countries was accessible to everyone. People who worked in standard working class jobs read, went to the theatre, the opera and the museums. It was just normal. I am still shocked at the fact that the vast majority of people in the UK do not have books in their houses. I was also shocked by the low level of education and the lack of knowledge of basic facts among average people in the UK when I arrived here many years ago.

Yes, behind the iron curtain your life would have been very difficult in many ways, but you would not have to watch how the children of rich parents in the next housing estate to you received excellent education in private schools and enjoyed high culture when your own child had to attend a failing state comprehensive and fight extra hard for a chance to go to a good university.

I know that hearing about positive aspects of life under communism just blows the mind of people in the West. But you really need to try to get beyond the capitalist propaganda. 25 years ago, I would have been with you. But after years and years of watching food banks, beggars on every corner of big cities, massive inequality of opportunities for children, erosion of workers' rights, crumbling health service, perpetually late and overcrowded trains, schoolteachers feeding hungry children and environmental degradation, I cannot help but ask serious questions about the merits of capitalism.

Hopeforall · 09/07/2020 10:25

It’s amazing considering how much better life was under communism that some of the Soviet satellite states haven’t voted for a return to it.

DGRossetti · 09/07/2020 10:26

@Popjam

Literally just saw this quote from Jacinda Ardern before seeing this post:

"Economic growth accompanied by worsening social outcomes is not success," Ardern said. "It is failure."

So true.

Believe it or not (and I suspect for different reasons) Nigel Farage has said the same ....
DGRossetti · 09/07/2020 10:27

I’m old enough to remember the 1970s when the government owned the phone industry, the oil & gas industry, the postal industry, the aviation industry, the electricity industry, the car industry, the water industry, the rail industry etc etc etc.

It was awful. Consumers had little choice other than ‘take it or leave it’. You had to wait months to get a phone line installed. Products and services were crap, prices were high, Unions had far to much power.

Sounds about right.

It' one reason why I really cannot understand anyone telling me how great things were in the past. Not the one I come from.

MangoFeverDream · 09/07/2020 10:30

High culture in the Soviet countries was accessible to everyone

This was absolutely not the case in China though. Virtually all high culture was wiped out.

you would not have to watch how the children of rich parents in the next housing estate to you received excellent education in private schools and enjoyed high culture when your own child had to attend a failing state comprehensive and fight extra hard for a chance to go to a good university

That opportunity in Communist countries was limited to children of elite cadres. So even fewer children had any chance to thrive.

beggars on every corner of big cities

Largely due to addiction, but some scammers. Not because of dire poverty.

massive inequality of opportunities for children

Yet, many more opportunities for children in capitalist countries than in communist countries.

perpetually late and overcrowded trains

Having been on Chinese train a few decades ago ...... lol

environmental degradation

The Soviet countries are infamous for their wrecked environment, worse than Western countries. Where did you grow up that the environment was so pristine?

RandomLondoner · 09/07/2020 10:53

Capitalism doesn't require machinists to be paid £3 an hour, that's just greed.

OP and others are blaming the wrong entity. It's mainly government that is responsible for preventing the problem. Though in this case, exceptionally, the businesses are also responsible, because the minimum wage law is presumably being broken.

It would be ridiculous to abolish a whole system because governments either failed to set standards, or enforce standards that they had previously legislated.

RandomLondoner · 09/07/2020 11:00

Companies have grown bigger and more powerful than governments.

Companies will never be more powerful than governments. If companies do things that governments don't like, governments can ultimately send men with guns to stop them.

DGRossetti · 09/07/2020 11:04

@RandomLondoner

Companies have grown bigger and more powerful than governments.

Companies will never be more powerful than governments. If companies do things that governments don't like, governments can ultimately send men with guns to stop them.

Er, the history of India which was colonised by a private company would disagree with you.

And Eisenhowers warning from over half a century ago still stands. The US military is really the private army of US industry.

Companies buy governments.

From another thread:

Nearly half of the top 50 public corporations in the UK have connections with a serving MP [] In comparison, the figures for the US are 6% and 4%, respectively. Only Russia and Thailand have a higher proportion of 'politically connected' companies

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/mps-and-outside-business-interests/

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