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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that capitalism is shit?

302 replies

malificent7 · 08/07/2020 08:14

Just reading about the clothing sweat shops in Leister where sewing machinists are paid as little as 4.50 an hour and packers £3 an hour. Meanwhile the owner of Boohoo is a billionaire. Plus fast fashion is highly polluting.
This is just one industry. How come so many of us are willing to work for rich capitaliats while we scrape by?
Capitalism is shit isn't it?

OP posts:
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5
RandomLondoner · 09/07/2020 11:09

People want to pay next to nothing. If someone isn't willing to pay the actual cost, they're part of the problem.

I disagree with this as well. While consumer responsibility can be a bit more than nothing, in some cases, in general it's not their responsibility to extensively research a whole supply chain every time they spend a fiver on anything.

Setting and enforcing standards is a job for government.

To make the system work consumers need to buy the best value for money, producers need to maximise profit (including by driving down wage costs, but within the law) and government needs to set and enforce limits on what producers are allowed to do when minimising costs.

As long as people are blaming business, consumers or the system as a whole, instead of the one part of the system that can fix things, they will be contributing to the problem by not putting pressure in the right place.

sst1234 · 09/07/2020 11:10

@PissedOffProf

sst1234, you are wrong to underestimate the availability of cultural goods to everyone. Access to high culture is access to education. Access to education is access to power.

When I arrived to the West, I was completely shocked at the price of theatre tickets, books and entry to museums. Behind the iron curtain, all these things were available at very low prices to everyone. You could purchase a good quality hardcover book for a price of a few standard loaves of bread (bread was a lot better too, btw, than the plastic sponge fed to the masses in the UK and the US).

High culture in the Soviet countries was accessible to everyone. People who worked in standard working class jobs read, went to the theatre, the opera and the museums. It was just normal. I am still shocked at the fact that the vast majority of people in the UK do not have books in their houses. I was also shocked by the low level of education and the lack of knowledge of basic facts among average people in the UK when I arrived here many years ago.

Yes, behind the iron curtain your life would have been very difficult in many ways, but you would not have to watch how the children of rich parents in the next housing estate to you received excellent education in private schools and enjoyed high culture when your own child had to attend a failing state comprehensive and fight extra hard for a chance to go to a good university.

I know that hearing about positive aspects of life under communism just blows the mind of people in the West. But you really need to try to get beyond the capitalist propaganda. 25 years ago, I would have been with you. But after years and years of watching food banks, beggars on every corner of big cities, massive inequality of opportunities for children, erosion of workers' rights, crumbling health service, perpetually late and overcrowded trains, schoolteachers feeding hungry children and environmental degradation, I cannot help but ask serious questions about the merits of capitalism.

If it’s so successful why does it never work? Or is it an American conspiracy to defeat socialism? An no Scandinavia is not socialist as people wrongly assume. When all is said and done, culture has no value if you have hunger pangs.
hoodathunkit · 09/07/2020 11:11

Pure capitalism doesn't work for the same reason pure socialism or communism doesn't. Human nature.

this

RandomLondoner · 09/07/2020 11:23

Er, the history of India which was colonised by a private company would disagree with you

The private company could have been stopped by the British government, so they were not the ultimate authority over India, however much power and discretion they had. The British government was.

Without checking, as far as I recall, The East India Company and similar companies set up by other European powers were authorised by various governments, possibly even explicitly created by them. They were not rogue commercial operations that those governments disapproved of.

From the point of view of citizens of occupied countries, their ultimate beef is not with the company, but the government that authorised or even explicitly created them. Essentially they were occupied by a foreign power, the fact that the occupation was implemented by a private company operating with almost unlimited discretion doesn't change that.

In any case, this is hardly relevant to the world today.

A more obvious objection is that a British government probably cannot stop an American or Chinese or Russian business doing something we don't like, if their own government is willing to protect them. But in that case the problem redefines itself to be between one government and another, rather than one government and a business.

xtinak · 09/07/2020 11:31

Regulatory capture is a helpful concept to consider the dynamic of government vs business en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

This is thought to have played a role in the 2008 GFC and remains highly relevant in my opinion.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 09/07/2020 11:36

Many years ago I knew someone who grew up in Czechoslovakia, where her options were limited because her parents refused to join the Party. She managed to get a visa to study in the US, but only on condition that her parents paid some money (their life savings) into a bond that they would only get back when their daughter returned home. Off she trotted to the US where, as her parents had known she would, she immediately claimed asylum and her parents lost their money. She and her parents never expected to see each other again. Fortunately for them all, the Iron Curtain came down.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 09/07/2020 11:38

Ah yes, environmental degradation.
The Aral Sea, anyone? On whose watch was that destroyed?

DGRossetti · 09/07/2020 11:43

Ah yes, environmental degradation.

been going on for millennia ...

user1471565182 · 09/07/2020 11:47

Well, the communists are by far the biggest constant opposition in Russia, Hopeforall.

user1471565182 · 09/07/2020 11:48

And they've just had another massively fraudulent election. Very naive to think they can actually choose who they want.

user1471565182 · 09/07/2020 11:52

Facebook and Google are already more powerful than most of the world's governments.

DGRossetti · 09/07/2020 11:58

@user1471565182

Facebook and Google are already more powerful than most of the world's governments.
Mark Zuck flipping the bird at the UK government pretty much told everyone who was boss there.
Hopeforall · 09/07/2020 11:58

User - yes, I appreciate that Putin will be hard to dislodge - that’s why I said satellite states.
However Russia has had a revolution before, maybe they’ll have another one and the communists will return to power.

puzzledpiece · 09/07/2020 12:11

Capitalism is shit, but socialism as operated by communist states is even more shit.

I don't know the answer, because the world seems to turn on consumerism.

wafflyversatile · 09/07/2020 13:17

Companies will never be more powerful than governments. If companies do things that governments don't like, governments can ultimately send men with guns to stop them

Any examples? This is laughable. They use guns to protect businesses. Or the companies hire the guns. The strikers get shot. The protesters get shot. Not the business owners.

Pepperwort · 09/07/2020 16:11

Companies will never be more powerful than governments. If companies do things that governments don't like, governments can ultimately send men with guns to stop them

Certainly the ultimate in human relations is force and power and the ability to control it. However government in the UK appears to be losing that power as private companies gain it.

Capitalism is very far from perfect, but all the evidence shows that a market economy with strong regulation of workers’ rights, safety standards and environmental protection combined with a progressive, redistributive tax & benefit system and a comprehensive social safety net provides the best outcome for the largest number of people.

I'd actually agree with this. The point is that in the UK and in pure capitalism these strong regulations do not exist any more. They have been watered down and the expectation is that they will continue to be watered down. Those strong relations are what we usually call socialism. Sometimes I think half the trouble is that we spend half the time arguing about definitions of words and the other half not really knowing what the other is talking about, we just hear the word "socialism" and switch off. The amount of soundbites being thrown around without discussion is astonishing. Fascinating thread btw.

Pepperwort · 09/07/2020 16:14

Those strong regulations, and safety nets. Blush

wafflyversatile · 09/07/2020 17:26

The strong regulations and safety nets are socialism.

We've never had a socialist UK and we've never had a capitalist uk. It's a mixture. Power has swung too far to capitalism. We need something different. Capitalism cannot and will not solve the grave environmental issues we have.

bumblingbovine49 · 09/07/2020 17:30

all the evidence shows that a market economy with strong regulation of workers’ rights, safety standards and environmental protection combined with a progressive, redistributive tax & benefit system and a comprehensive social safety net provides the best outcome for the largest number of people.

Yes but we most emphatically do not have this. As a PP said, strong regulation of workers’ rights, safety standards and environmental protection combined with a progressive, redistributive tax & benefit system and a comprehensive social safety net
are socialist ideas not capitalism.

If we don't have those moderating forces, capitalism runs wild and we get extremes of wealth at each end with little middle ground (where we are now)

romeolovedjulliet · 09/07/2020 17:36

most people are greedy, they want it today and fuck the expense to everyone else. who really needs a £1000 mobile or a huge wardrobe of sweatshop made designer clothles ? this doesn't impress me at all. i don't care ifyouare on benefits or have a £12,000 salary a month.
communism is good on paper but it doesn't work in real life.
we need a balance between the two.

DGRossetti · 09/07/2020 17:37

all the evidence shows that a market economy with strong regulation of workers’ rights, safety standards and environmental protection combined with a progressive, redistributive tax & benefit system and a comprehensive social safety net provides the best outcome for the largest number of people.

But the people running the UK don't want that. They want the best possible outcome for themselves - the 1% or so that really matter. Why would they care about the 99% ?

sst1234 · 09/07/2020 17:45

@romeolovedjulliet

most people are greedy, they want it today and fuck the expense to everyone else. who really needs a £1000 mobile or a huge wardrobe of sweatshop made designer clothles ? this doesn't impress me at all. i don't care ifyouare on benefits or have a £12,000 salary a month. communism is good on paper but it doesn't work in real life. we need a balance between the two.
It’s a good job that we already have it, then.
Alisonjabub · 09/07/2020 20:31

@wafflyversatile

The strong regulations and safety nets are socialism.

We've never had a socialist UK and we've never had a capitalist uk. It's a mixture. Power has swung too far to capitalism. We need something different. Capitalism cannot and will not solve the grave environmental issues we have.

We need to forget about what we can do to stop it and concentrate on what we can do to adapt. Emmisions are onlyt going to rise and we have no control over under developed countries yet to develop. If there really is a climate issue we're way beyond doing anything to stop it.
Alisonjabub · 09/07/2020 20:35

@romeolovedjulliet

most people are greedy, they want it today and fuck the expense to everyone else. who really needs a £1000 mobile or a huge wardrobe of sweatshop made designer clothles ? this doesn't impress me at all. i don't care ifyouare on benefits or have a £12,000 salary a month. communism is good on paper but it doesn't work in real life. we need a balance between the two.
We need wealthy people. Its the only way we innovate and grow with nice things. Who else do you think would buy the newest and latest tech like flat screen TV's when they were £5000+. Its only cause the rich buy them up making the tech cheaper to produce and drop in price so everyone can afford it. This is how economy works folks.
squanderedcore · 09/07/2020 21:04

Specifically, about the Leicester factories; surely the first important question is: were the factories operating in full compliance with current UK laws including health and safety, employment etc? If not (and this seems to be the case from the reporting but best to be sure) then the question needs to be why were the current rules not enforced? All the more important since one of the themes of Brexit is likely to be further deregulation.