To think that capitalism is shit?

[malificent7]

Just reading about the clothing sweat shops in Leister where sewing machinists are paid as little as 4.50 an hour and packers £3 an hour. Meanwhile the owner of Boohoo is a billionaire. Plus fast fashion is highly polluting.
This is just one industry. How come so many of us are willing to work for rich capitaliats while we scrape by?
Capitalism is shit isn't it?

Isn't it, like most things in life, all a question of balance. Markets are undoubtedly good for some things but clearly not the best way to run others. Expecting perfect equality is unrealistic but the level of inequality we have in society is detrimental and is hurting all but the most wealthy. We can't continue with unfettered capitalism as we are fast destroying the planet; it has become clear that carbon neutral economic growth is a fallacy; growth requires resources and we're running out. We need a new model, one that prioritises the well-being of all people not just the wealthy few in the West. As westerners we're probably all going to take a hit on our standards of living but if that is shared equally I think most will find it tolerable for a better future. Unfettered capitalism has provided space for some amazing ideas and lifted many from poverty but it's harms have also been legion and it's time is done. Time for degrowth, ending tax avoidance and UBI. None of this means turning the UK into the former USSR; it was a completely different setting many years ago.

And ..

Imagine if we lived in an equitable sustainable world and someone came along and said I've got an idea let's have a handful of people with unimaginable wealth while others starve or die of easily preventable or curable diseases. We'd think them mad and lock them up yet here we are with billions of people supporting and defending this model and calling those who want an equitable sustainable world mad.

Capitalism has killed just as many people as Communism. It is a shit system. I’d like an AMA from a child growing up in the capitalist slums of Nairobi or Jakarta.

The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money

The problem with capitalism is you eventually run out of planet.

the solution is a radical shift in power from the capitalists to the workers. This is to be accomplished through massive government support for the unions
You've lost my sympathetic ear by this comment. Do you mean the same unions that are trying to cripple the reopening of schools in September thereby wrecking the education (and any prospects for the future) of a whole generation? I suppose in your eyes at least they'd be f**ked equally.

The actual fault in the Leicester sweatshop is not capitalism, it is the failure to enforce the rule of law. They were breaking minimum wage laws, health and safety and possibly other laws as well. The authorities took no action, just like with the grooming gangs - a fear of being called prejudiced, or because enforcement authorities were infiltrated by people connected to the abusers.

No system is perfect but it is obvious that regulated capitalism has brought millions out of poverty whereas state planning has done the reverse. Look at Nth vs South Korea; East vs West Germany etc.

The environment cannot afford to have everyone lifted out of poverty via capitalism. If everyone lived as we do in europe and north america we'd be even more fucked. We've been sold the lie that consumerism will make us happy to serve an economy that demands growth year on year. Its perverse.

We need something that serves the needs of all humans sustainably. That's not going to be capitalism.

The environment cannot afford to have everyone lifted out of poverty via capitalism. If everyone lived as we do in europe and north america we'd be even more fucked

They can only be lifted out of poverty via capitalism. No other economic system has accomplished this task. It’s a proven poverty fighter.

You can’t ask them to stay poor so you feel better. There are benefits to development as well—more efficient farming practices, fewer and more educated children and better land use policies and stricter environmental regulations.

The way I see it, we can’t afford for these counties to stay poor.

We need something that serves the needs of all humans sustainably. That's not going to be capitalism

Nothing else is up to the task. Every comfort and convenience in your life is due to the industrial revolution. Anything else that has been tried has been an abject failure.

Do people really not understand that to have billionaires you have to have many more poor people? Capitalists just dont understand simple concepts about value.

And where the hell does this idiotic idea come from that socialist countries dont create new things? the USSR won the space race by miles for a start.

Thats nonsense Mango. China lifted 850 million out of extreme poverty.

Thats nonsense Mango. China lifted 850 million out of extreme poverty.
And murdered 50 million along the way.

@user1471565182

Do people really not understand that to have billionaires you have to have many more poor people? Capitalists just dont understand simple concepts about value.

Eh? What are you talking about? No, you don’t have to have more poor people in order to have Billionnaires. It’s not a zero sum game. Poverty is not the same as inequality. And if growth in inequality and in increase in Billionnaires is the same thing as the minimum standard being raised, then that’s an amazing outcome. But the anti billionnaire axe grinding is just an ideological political agenda. It’s actually cruel because people with this agenda don’t give two shits about actual outcomes which raise minimum living standards.

@user1471565182

And where the hell does this idiotic idea come from that socialist countries dont create new things? the USSR won the space race by miles for a start.

Oh yes that amazing achievement where a communist country spends billions of its people’s money on a space program while it’s people queue for bread. If that’s your bar, you need to pick it up off the ground.

This is a very long but interesting read about the multiplicity of political, economic and administration arrangements that humans can enter into, and the multiple possible outcomes. Can't say I agree with all of it, but it might be relevant to a polarised argument.

www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n14/pankaj-mishra/flailing-states

Whilst in the US they spent billions of their own citizens money on a space program while still treating black people as 2nd class citizens and whilst millions starved.

How many did the US kill last century? why dont you mention that alongside their economic record, hope?

Tell me sst, what happens to the value of money if everybody is a millionaire? what happens to housing costs? what is inflation? you seem to think billionaires just get money printed for them.

Thats nonsense Mango. China lifted 850 million out of extreme poverty

😂😂😂

Mao sure didn’t do it. Maybe you should read a history book and realise that is was the capitalist-style market reforms under Deng Xiaoping that ultimately led to Chinese prosperity.

Not socialism. The State-owned sector in China has never, ever pulled its own weight.

And where the hell does this idiotic idea come from that socialist countries dont create new things? the USSR won the space race by miles for a start

So, what lasting technology came from that? The US companies took findings from the space race to take that tech and market them to sell everything from vacuum cleaners to insulation to medical technology to photography and even the internet.

I’m not sure the Soviets ever had a technological renaissance from their space race

The Nordic model seems to strike a good balance. Citizens of Norway, Sweden and the like pay higher taxes, however they are distributed fairly, to the point where homelessness has almost been eradicated and the elderly are well cared for.
Switzerland also has euthanasia clinics for those who are deemed to have capacity but wish to end their lives; as well as drug clinics where addiction is treated as a disease rather than a crime. Users are administered just enough of a dose of Heroin to function for the day, resulting in lower crime rates that would otherwise be a red to secure a fix, such as robbery.
Capitalism in itself is a massive issue, but without looking at other social issues, whereby great sums of money are not fairly distributed or are thrown at useless systems like the UKs prison system fails to solve the issue.
Taking Switzerland's drug programme as an example, if the UK were to follow suit, we would be unlikely to be paying ridiculous amounts of tax to keep repeat petty offenders inside.
Fair distribution is the answer in my opinion, but the root causes of social issues must first be examined.
The Nordic model shows that certain levels of Socialism are in fact, beneficial.

So we agree, mango- a form of limited capitalism/socialism can raise people out of poverty.

'Sputnik marked the start of the collective mapping of our planet, revolutionizing global navigation, travel and communication. The GPS trackers in smartphones are just one of its many outcomes.'

One of millions.

Capitalism doesn't have to be bad. Excess capitalism, driven by aggressive, immoral greed is wicked. That's what we have right now. But a mild version of capitalism is quite healthy. No competition doesn't make for an innovative or energised society either. Though if I had to choose excess capitalism or communism, it would be communism.

Sputnik marked the start of the collective mapping of our planet, revolutionizing global navigation, travel and communication. The GPS trackers in smartphones are just one of its many outcomes

But which companies actually took the tech and made it available to the common man? Sure as shit wasn’t a Russian company.

You can’t ask them to stay poor so you feel better. There are benefits to development as well—more efficient farming practices, fewer and more educated children and better land use policies and stricter environmental regulations.

I'm not asking them to stay poor. We cannot afford the levels of capitalist consumerism we have here. We cant afford to continue it here. We need to address meeting all human needs not maintaining our consumerist habits while others are exploited to support and protect our lifestyle and encouraged to strive to be as consumerist as we are.

Thats true, we dont even need companies to develop this stuff- most of it is done in the education sector and a lot with government funding.

wikipedia has a whole page to soviet designs-

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_inventions