To think that capitalism is shit?

[malificent7]

Just reading about the clothing sweat shops in Leister where sewing machinists are paid as little as 4.50 an hour and packers £3 an hour. Meanwhile the owner of Boohoo is a billionaire. Plus fast fashion is highly polluting.
This is just one industry. How come so many of us are willing to work for rich capitaliats while we scrape by?
Capitalism is shit isn't it?

Hopeforall well look where 'victorious' liberal democracy currently is.

@PissedOffProf

Hopeforall, maybe not. But transatlantic slave trade and colonialism certainly were and the effects of these are still with us all over the world. Your point?

My point was that mentioning Theresa May in the same breath as Hitler and Stalin was pretty odd.

Hopeforall, I think refusing to acknowledge the atrocities arising from the capitalist system at the present moment is rather odd.

@DGRossetti - yes it is interesting to see how an artificially constructed economic exchange system can also 'corrupt' monkeys unable to escape that system. I hope we can aspire to more!

An understanding of the 'concept' is irrelevant. My dog has no concept of a reward based system but can still demonstrate the behaviour necessary to gain reward.

Well maybe instead of labelling the systems (and not always using the same definitions anyway), we could decide what kind of society we want, and create it, rather than getting stuck on what it should be called?

@SchrodingersImmigrant

Nothing to do with customers not wanting to pay proper prices, eh.

Newsflash. If people want dresses for a fiver, obviously the worker's conditions will be shit. Same with a chicken sandwich for a pound 🤷🏻

Customers are in fault in here too.

Eggsactly.

I am really interested these days in the structure of indigenous societies and the relationship of people to place. I think there's a lot to learn there. Also interesting to read about the process by which this relationship was severed in Britian through land enclosure.

@xtinak

I am really interested these days in the structure of indigenous societies and the relationship of people to place. I think there's a lot to learn there. Also interesting to read about the process by which this relationship was severed in Britian through land enclosure.

.

It is not capitalism per se but unrestrained, unregulated capitalism that is the problem. Many (usually powerful and rich) people are terrified of the words 'socialism that they would do anything to make sure we do not have any socialism based policies or ideas as part of our economic system.

We need a type of capitalism, moderated by ideas rooted in socialism such as concern for the greater good even if sometimes it is at the expense of individualism.

That way we pure boundaries to the 'greed' that tends to be encouraged by unregulated, rampant capitalism where money and profit are valued above all else

www.ips-journal.eu/in-focus/2018/whats-gone-wrong-with-capitalism/article/show/playing-fair-2683/

newfinancial.org/report-the-crisis-of-capitalism/

It is not capitalism per se but unrestrained, unregulated capitalism that is the problem. Many (usually powerful and rich) people are terrified of the words 'socialism that they would do anything to make sure we do not have any socialism based policies or ideas as part of our economic system.

Proposition: The US phobia of communism has done far greater harm to the world than communism itself.

bumblingbovine49, I am tempted to agree with you, but at the same time I cannot help but see that capitalism tends towards deregulation. We may start off in a heavily regulation economy but over time the drive for profit encourages private companies and investors to lobby for less and less regulation in order to give them more opportunities to exploit the resources, including people, to their advantage. This is what has been happening in the Western world since the 1970s and in many developing countries since the 1980s (to a large degree due to the Washington Consensus).

DGRossetti, I wholeheartedly agree with your proposition. Just look at Cuba! And Afghanistan!

It’s the constant growing of an economy at all costs that I think causes the issue.

@DGRosetti Interesting quote. I'm far from an expert on the subject mind you, but I think it might be an oversimplification to say there was no private property and no swindling etc. Also I guess indigenous tribes are all different. I recently rewatched the BBC documentary Masters of the Pacific Coast which I highly recommend. The tribes had these valuable items called coppers that they would give away to other tribes in order to, if I understood well, create indebtedness and demonstrate power. There was a funny story about someone pretending to throw his coppers into the lake to show how many he had but secretely someone was retrieving them and putting them back in his boat. Anyway, they were - perhaps it's fair to say are - an incredibly succesful and sustainable culture.

That would be nice but there is the small issue of an existing system that creates inequalities and that produces winners and losers and existing structures made up by past winners (eg wealth historically predicated on slavery) or those who have inherited economic/cultural capital and seeks to produce privileged others who hope to be future big winners.

Then there is a swathe of the population who will try to operate successfully in this system because they are unable to conceive an alternative that would not be worse so they accept house prices 10x average salary, tuition and care home fees etc.

Then there are those that focus on getting through - the majority?

And then there are those with poor work prospects, expensive rent, unaffordable mortgages, zero hour contracts etc.

And then there are those that really fall through the gaps.

That's why social disorder is a threat. It is also why 'coming out of lockdown' is focused on propping up the economy and mitigating social disorder and why those in the middle feel overlooked.

@PissedOffProf

DGRossetti, I wholeheartedly agree with your proposition. Just look at Cuba! And Afghanistan!

My starting point was Vietnam ...

Proposition: The US phobia of communism has done far greater harm to the world than communism itself.

I'd say that was a very good proposition with a lot of truth to it in that the harm done is insidious and wide ranging across the whole world.

The problem with using the word 'communism' of course is that people are even more terrified of that as an idea than socialism and to be fair in pretty much every instance it has been tried it has run rampant itself and not worked well

Though this article (from Fox News of all places) seems to be saying says that China and Vietnam are economically successful despite their one party communist party type leadership.

I'd say both these countries have in recent years combined capitalism and communism in a reasonably successful way.

I'd say they have done this by overlaying capitalist economic ideas over the basic concept of communist politics and cultural norms. I think this is not unsuccessful but people do have to give up a lot of freedoms for it.

I'd personally prefer to overlay regulation, higher taxes and centrally imposed mechanisms for more fair distribution of wealth over the capitalism we have , if that is possible. I'm not sure it will work but we are used to our social freedoms here and are unlikely to want to give them up.

Sorry link here www.foxnews.com/world/world-remaining-communist-countries-economics

If we take that our political and economic systems are permanently entwined ...

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.

@PissedOffProf
I think you might be right about the tendency towards deregulation, I am just not sure what the answer is which makes me despair somewhat. I am worried that we are in for a period of unrest and more and more authoritarian regimes coming to power in countries that have until now been democracies as a kickback against the harms caused by rampant capitalism. A sort of lurching from one extreme to the other.

When you say that capitalism per se is not a problem and needs to be controlled by socialist principals you are forgetting that there are individuals involved. Rich and powerful individuals who do not want to relinquish wealth and power. And the political system is geared toward the rich and powerful.

Do you think that this is being currently demonstrated? Are socialist principles behind the printing of money, share buy backs? Do you really think that socialist principles are behind the transfer of wealth toward the rich and increasing inequality? Even the so-called protectionist policies are (to be generous) misguided - who does furlough, stamp duty cuts, traineeships, vouchers to spend etc really benefit? (Spoiler - employers and the markets).

When you say that capitalism per se is not a problem and needs to be controlled by socialist principals you are forgetting that there are individuals involved. Rich and powerful individuals who do not want to relinquish wealth and power. And the political system is geared toward the rich and powerful.

Do you think that this is being currently demonstrated? Are socialist principles behind the printing of money, share buy backs? Do you really think that socialist principles are behind the transfer of wealth toward the rich and increasing inequality? Even the so-called protectionist policies are (to be generous) misguided - who does furlough, stamp duty cuts, traineeships, vouchers to spend etc really benefit? (Spoiler - employers and the markets).

Regardless of what system is in place, there has clearly been a massive failure of regulation.

Regulatory agencies must be better resourced so that they can enforce things like workplace health & safety, minimum wage compliance and working time regulations. (It remains to be seen if the protection currently in place regarding working hours will continue post-Brexit).

And I, like PPs, are very intrigued by how these slave drivers got away with paying so little for so long. I look forward to seeing them in court, and hope that there is some way of redressing their shocking non-compliance.

@DGRossetti

Somewhat depressing for us as I think we are around the 'selfishness/complacency' stage at least and rapidly going into 'apathy'.

every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. Yes, this is almost inevitable unless we can find a completely different system by which we can live (too idealistic I know)