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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that capitalism is shit?

302 replies

malificent7 · 08/07/2020 08:14

Just reading about the clothing sweat shops in Leister where sewing machinists are paid as little as 4.50 an hour and packers £3 an hour. Meanwhile the owner of Boohoo is a billionaire. Plus fast fashion is highly polluting.
This is just one industry. How come so many of us are willing to work for rich capitaliats while we scrape by?
Capitalism is shit isn't it?

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 08/07/2020 14:27

@user1471565182

hopeforall I was talking about the economic benefits of nazism with somebody yesterday. People can do that you know, talk about these things removed from the hysterics.
Were there any economic benefits to Nazism ? After all, they lost the war. And ultimately you lose wars because you simply cannot make as much as you enemies.

The US and UK - when engaged - far out performed the Nazis who were systemically crippled with weird ideological issues (they rejected production lines as "too Jewish"), cronyism on a massive scale, and a misguided belief that slave labour was free.

Anyone who thinks the Nazis were any good at economics should watch

yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/war-factories/

bearing in mind when the war ended in 1945, the US hadn't even started to reach a limit of it's capability.

Hopeforall · 08/07/2020 14:29

Neither Stalin nor Hitler or Trump or Bush or May or King Leopold of Belgium were single-handedly responsible for the atrocities that happened when they were in power.

Comparing Theresa May with Hitler and Stalin is a bit unfair isn’t it?

Of course dictators had underlings who carried out, ordered and were responsible for atrocities but referring to Hitler or Stalin is generally shorthand for the regimes they presided over.

Hopeforall · 08/07/2020 14:31

That cold war 'victory' is starting to look very hollow now indeed.

User can you enlarge on what you mean?

DGRossetti · 08/07/2020 14:32

Comparing Theresa May with Hitler and Stalin is a bit unfair isn’t it?

Well she was nowhere near as capable.

PissedOffProf · 08/07/2020 14:39

comparing Theresa May with Hitler and Stalin is a bit unfair isn’t it? - don't know. You ask the Windrush scandal victims.

And you are missing the point. Nazism and WWII were not caused solely by Hitler and a bunch of underlings. You have to ask how they got the power in the first place. I am not saying they should not be individually held responsible for their actions, but you would be very unwise to focus just on them and ignore the social/economic/political historical conditions in Germany at their time. Individual racists should be held responsible for their racism, but we also should examine racism as a systemic feature of our society.

DGRossetti · 08/07/2020 14:43

And you are missing the point. Nazism and WWII were not caused solely by Hitler and a bunch of underlings. You have to ask how they got the power in the first place

You know how we talk about "The Hundred Years War" ?

I think that in future centuries, 1914-1989 will be seen in the same way. WW2 was really a continuation from WW1 and created the conditions that led to the Cold war which supposedly ended in 1989.

PissedOffProf · 08/07/2020 14:48

DGRossetti - history, just one bloody thing after another. :)

DGRossetti · 08/07/2020 14:49

@PissedOffProf

DGRossetti - history, just one bloody thing after another. :)
Or bunk Grin. Well almost all.

And it doesn't repeat, but it sure as hell rhymes.

Hopeforall · 08/07/2020 14:56

don't know. You ask the Windrush scandal victims.

The Windrush scandal was as bad an atrocity as the Holocaust?

JaJaDingDong · 08/07/2020 14:59

comparing Theresa May with Hitler and Stalin is a bit unfair isn’t it?
*

moolaalaa · 08/07/2020 14:59

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"

user1471565182 · 08/07/2020 15:00

well no my point was the supposed economic miracle of nazism was built on a bubble of arnaments.

Shamoo · 08/07/2020 15:00

Fundamentally the majority of human beings are selfish and self absorbed. Whether they are world leaders or random members of the public. As others have said, Boo Hoo can only get away with it because people care more about paying five quid for a dress than they do ensuring the people making them are paid fairly and have good working conditions. It is obvious - completely obvious - that a dress which costs a fiver is being made using some form of underpaid and poorly treated workers in the world. The only reason people are surprised in this case is that they are in Leicester and not Bangladesh. Somehow in Britain we think we are better than that, although we consistently prove that we are not.

None of that is due to capitalism. It’s due to the inherent nature of human beings. If people cared about other people (not family members but humanity generally) these things wouldn’t happen. But they don’t care. Like most people don’t care about the planet enough to not buy plastic bottles or to not throw away recyclable goods in public bins that don’t recycle. Everyday people make choices that show they don’t really care about anything other than their own lives and the people they love.

Not a criticism of people. Just a fact. And until that changes (doubt it ever will) the world will never be a better place.

user1471565182 · 08/07/2020 15:01

Also, slave labour is a hell of an economic driver.

PissedOffProf · 08/07/2020 15:01

Hopeforall, maybe not. But transatlantic slave trade and colonialism certainly were and the effects of these are still with us all over the world. Your point?

JaJaDingDong · 08/07/2020 15:01

I live in Manchester, the home of fake goods these factories/sweatshops are rampant here too. The fake goods aren't all imported, many of my Asian friends mums would sew day & night & get paid for piece work, so 10p for each pair of trousers.

This industry isn't exclusive to Leicester or Boohoo it goes far beyond that. As well as Asian families, many immigrants, and anyone who can sew, do this work to earn a few extra pounds, in my area the material is dropped off at the house & collected as soon as your done. There's no way the authorities don't know this exists and has done for years.

And this is what we should be tackling when we talk about "Black Lives Matter", not old statues. Because this is modern slavery, happening now, and most of the people affected are immigrants.

user1471565182 · 08/07/2020 15:02

'running out of money' isnt a thing though is it really, it just moves around.

KOKOagainandagain · 08/07/2020 15:05

Although it is a truism to state (without evidence) that people are inherently selfish and greedy, I doubt that this is actually the fact.

There may be plenty of evidence that where relations are organised by an economic system (eg reward based) predicated on expansion of market and exploitation (of people and the wider environment) that leads to increased inequality and therefore problems of social order, it is necessary to have checks and balances to keep the cycle going. But this is because of system dynamic not human nature. Also the checks and balances are campaigned and fought for rather than charitably given - eg 'gender' pay gap, minimum wage etc.

But selfishness and greed do not determine non economic relations where labour is freely given - family, friends, community. Do you invoice for everything you do? Do you consider yourself to be selfish and greedy? Is your giving inherently selfish? Do you give without expecting reward? Do you think carers are angels or stupid because carers allowance is a pittance and those cared for are rarely grateful?

Wider than that, people freely give their time and labour and 'intellectual and experiential' labour to help others for no monetary gain on this board (see SEN threads, relationships etc - maybe not AIBU!). See also the socialisation of capital needed to fund health, education, pensions etc. See also how new technologies release beta versions to be improved, peer to peer collaboration etc.

The truth is, capitalism could never and cannot continue to exist without free labour. Often provided by women. Perhaps this is the kernel developed under capitalist exchange that will enable a better way of doing things?

user1471565182 · 08/07/2020 15:05

Watched this the other day as well.

'Russian elders describe their life in the USSR'

DGRossetti · 08/07/2020 15:06

@user1471565182

Also, slave labour is a hell of an economic driver.
Not really. It cost the Nazis far more than it saved.
PissedOffProf · 08/07/2020 15:10

KeepOnKeepingOnAgainandAgain - excellent points!

EliotBliss · 08/07/2020 15:10

I agree OP, and the incident with Boohoo exactly what Naomi Klein discussed in No Logo. Seems to be a lot of confusion/conflating of socialism/communism on the thread as well as around different instances of capitalism, and don't even want to start on confusing Maoism with socialism!

If you're really interested then you might find the 'very Short Introduction' series from Oxford University Press useful, short, relatively cheap and well-researched. These titles in particular:

Socialism: a very short introduction

Capitalism: a very short introduction

Communism: a very short introduction

KOKOagainandagain · 08/07/2020 15:12

Perception of inequality may well be innate to humans and other mammals. Equality of a lesser reward is OK but unequal reward has consequences.

DGRossetti · 08/07/2020 15:17

@KeepOnKeepingOnAgainandAgain

Perception of inequality may well be innate to humans and other mammals. Equality of a lesser reward is OK but unequal reward has consequences.
www.zmescience.com/research/how-scientists-tught-monkeys-the-concept-of-money-not-long-after-the-first-prostitute-monkey-appeared/

Makes for fascinating reading and discussion ....

You may have thought things like currency or money are concepts known solely by man - something which differentiates humans from animals. Some might have a sense of ownership, besides of course territory, but trading and the likes haven't been observed in any other species besides homo sapiens. An economist/psychologist duo from Yale back in 2005, however, managed to train seven capuchin monkeys how to use money, and I'm pretty sure from here on some of you might be able to guess what happened from there on.

user1471565182 · 08/07/2020 15:18

I think it made them less than they imagined (the holocaust) but i was referring more to Stalin's GULAG and the 5 year plans.