Annoyed that ex-h is giving 5yo alcohol and won't talk to me about it

[Meeko505]

My ex-h is half French and drinks wine with dinner often, but a few months ago I found out that he's been giving my 5yo son wine with dinner sometimes, watered down. I tried to ask how much and how often, but he wouldn't respond and said it was none of my business.

(Background; he was a controlling and emotionally abusive partner and since divorcing a year ago has tried to control me in terms of who I can see with the kids around and what the kids wear and I've not done what he wants, so basically whenever I have an issue with his parenting he just turns it back to that and says 'well, you didn't cooperate with me so'. I am in touch with a few people about his behaviour and a few issues we've had and will mention this to them, but I'm pretty sure there are no official channels that will help with this one.)

Anyway, yesterday my 5yo said he doesn't like wine so now Dad gives him beer in a cup instead .Again, I've sent messages for details on the amount and regularity but he hasn't responded.

My guess would be it's a small amount but quite often - not just special occasions at all.

I'm worried that a) the logic that 'he doesn't like wine I'll give him something else instead' and b) it's regular enough that, particularly with beer, he's going to be primed to go right into drinking more when he's 12/13.

I understand the argument that a little early exposure makes it less enticing, but tbh this is very regular and my 5yo is still clearly smitten with the idea that he gets a grown up drink and clearly thinks it's very cool, I don't know. It's also hard when I just don't know how much and clearly have no control over how it's scaled up in the coming years.

AIBU?

It's not right in your eyes. It's not right in mine. I'd be saying he can't go until the issue is sorted.

Keep logging these things and don't alert him about your displeasure/concerns. Hopefully you are building enough of a case to reduce his contact time.

KOKO

Just wanted to handhold, OP. It sounds like you couldn’t be doing more. What an absolute wanker your ex is. .

He’s not doing it for “cultural” reasons but because he knows it’s a way to get at you.

It’s not even normal in France according to my many French colleagues - we had a team meeting and this was discussed at length! Just as not all Brits are binge drinking idiots.

You already have social service contact - so bring it up with them, in the wider context.

I’m part French and this is very common practice in French culture. We would be offered a tiny amount of wine watered down in an egg cup sized glass from a young age with our meal once a week, from about 4 or 5 years old.

They tend not to have such a big binge drinking and underage drinking culture in France compared to the UK also, whether these two things are linked I’m not sure.

However, if your son doesn’t like wine or beer your exh should not force him.

@BluebonicPlague

The table-tipping is terrifying, and sounds far worse than an questionable and old-fashioned French attitude to watered wine/beer at mealtimes. This would be something to take action over. Have there been other incidents like this?

I agree it's more of a concern. I don't know of any others like that, but generally he has a bad temper and I've had crying phone calls from the kids because daddy is too angry etc.

I do log things in a notebook, and I will bring the table incident up with my contact next time they phone, but overall my impression is things have to be really bad for anything to happen.

The table-tipping was an incident of abuse. It was a violent outburst and your children must have been terrified.
Agree that you need to keep doing what you’re doing: keeping track of these episodes, recording them, building a case.

Whilst I don't like that it's not a mutual decision, it is cultural. I was raised in an Italian family (grandparents) and I regularly had wine and water with dinner from the age of 4/5 with the amount of water steadily decreasing as I got older. It certainly didn't make me into a raging alcoholic! It is just a regular part of my life, but I do have a healthy respect for alcohol. But I value the quality and condition of wine rather than just have a glass of cheap plonk.

I wouldnt be too concerned about your child having alcohol. Just make sure he's aware he doesn't have to drink it if he doesn't want to

Not liking "performative politeness?" - oh I get it - it won't matter what the kids/you say, he will be gauging whether you really mean it or not - how the fuck could he know if someone means it or not?!

You could literally not put a foot wrong, not be argumentative, be nice and polite and respectful but you'll still get grief because he thinks he can read your mind and that if he says so you're actually somehow lying? The arrogance! TELLING you something is black when it's just plain white - oh I know someone like that and they're not in my life any more either!

You're well rid of that one.

Sounds like he's doing it to annoy / provoke you.

Your children have called you more than once in tears because their dad is too angry? Are they 5 and 3? Not sure what the legal ramifications are of stopping contact, but from what you’ve posted he sounds very abusive. The alcohol thing might be the least worrisome thing .

My kids are growing up in France. When we have a proper sit down meal , friends and family over, the wine on the table is there for everyone. I did raise my eyes for the first 5 years, but now Im used to it. None of the French teenagers I know binge drink. My own kids will take a sip but they don't like it.

They have updated guidance on giving small amounts of alcohol to under 18's to a definite no, as they can't safely metabolise any amount. So you can tell him this would be a safeguarding issue.

It has been said that Police and Social Services would do nothing about the DC being given alcohol. The Police and Social Services did nothing about the children being left outside a supermarket.
How are children ever going to be safe if Police and Social Services will do nothing?

I’m part French and this is not normal. Earliest I was allowed watered down wine by my grandma over there was 13-14 years old. It’s a ridiculous thing to do and abusive. You could check this with your local CCG’s child safeguarding officer their views will be more pertinent than your ex H.

I would be inclined to report this to SS. They may not do anything but if your son mentioned it at school and the school decided to alert SS, your ex could say you were complicit because you knew and did nothing.

My mother is French and I used to have watered down wine with my dinner. It’s just a French thing. It was never enough to get drunk from.

Saying that, I don’t know whether I would be happy to do that with my kids. But as it’s legal (age of 5, supervised, not enough to get drunk on) I don’t think you can do anything legally about it apart from asking him to respect your wishes about this.

I was coming on to say the French don't do it this way (I am French) and it is to challenge you really. Just seen your updates about him tipping the table and kids calling in tears because dad is angry.

This is not a cultural issue. It is a safeguarding one. Can you tape the kids? I am pretty sure that it is acceptable in a court of law as evidence, but it may be acceptable to SS for non court negotiations. Hopefully someone will come along with actual knowledge of the system.

I'm glad you've gotten some advice on the legal side - I would be ballistic in your shoes.

Taking a cultural practice out of the culture pretty much means removes any benefits seeing the social norms of civil usage, so you only get the negatives of the health issues and deaths as discussed in the link a previous poster gave. Yeah, British binge drinking culture is horrible, but we can't erase the other issues cultures with a lot of 'cultural drinking' have or how those cultures have changed recently.

It's been repeatedly shown that early exposure raises risks of alcohol addiction and abuse in later life, even more so if someone has addicts in their family. I was raised in an American 'drinking culture', I can remember my brother being given wine coolers and even if it wasn't enough to get drunk on, he was still weird enough that I noticed and the adults were laughing. I wouldn't touch it, hated the smell, had a childhood of being called all sorts for not doing so, and sadly have seen others in the UK do the same to my teen for not wanting a drink at a funeral (he was 13 at the time).

I think calling it cultural makes these sharp dividing lines, but we can see from this thread and elsewhere, there is a wide range to cultural and it doesn't really change the risks.

Tbh he grew up in England and just spent holidays in France. He might have been given a bit of wine but he is much more culturally English and, I think, kind of romanticises French culture as it's something he probably always wanted more of as a kid

When my own children, now in their late 20s and early 30s, were young, during holidays abroad the waiters would always assume they could have some alcholol with their meals - eg automatically setting out a glass for wine and sometimes pouring it out for them. This was from age 5 onwards. This must have been in France, Spain, Italy and Greece, and was, I assume, just the done thing at the time.

wtf

My parents brought me and my sister up drinking small amounts of alcohol with weekend meals, so nothing was forbidden or seen as exciting. It worked as neither of us is fussed about alcohol - we can take it or leave it.

However your biggest issue isn't the alcohol per se. It is the fact that you are not on board with this arrangement and have asked for him to stop, and he is refusing. And with each update he sounds like he is enjoying using this as a way of defying and annoying you, rather than actually defending a cultural custom.

I'm French-English and this isn't anything as acceptable as some would think.

Where are all those wine-drinking 5 year olds???
I am French, and while family meals involved sit down 3 course and wine, no children had any!
I remember when I was about 12 my grandfather gave me watered down wine as a special treat. Once.

I'm in my early 40s and none of my friends have ever given booze to their kids?

Only experience in my family is my English MIL letting my toddler take a sip of her G & T...

It clearly isn’t a universal french custom given the different comments on the thread and given he didn’t grow up in France anyway it seems moot. I think there is often a bit of a romanticism about the french way but I think there are plenty of adults that are effectively functioning alcoholics even if there isn’t quite the same binging culture among younger people.