Annoyed that ex-h is giving 5yo alcohol and won't talk to me about it

[Meeko505]

My ex-h is half French and drinks wine with dinner often, but a few months ago I found out that he's been giving my 5yo son wine with dinner sometimes, watered down. I tried to ask how much and how often, but he wouldn't respond and said it was none of my business.

(Background; he was a controlling and emotionally abusive partner and since divorcing a year ago has tried to control me in terms of who I can see with the kids around and what the kids wear and I've not done what he wants, so basically whenever I have an issue with his parenting he just turns it back to that and says 'well, you didn't cooperate with me so'. I am in touch with a few people about his behaviour and a few issues we've had and will mention this to them, but I'm pretty sure there are no official channels that will help with this one.)

Anyway, yesterday my 5yo said he doesn't like wine so now Dad gives him beer in a cup instead .Again, I've sent messages for details on the amount and regularity but he hasn't responded.

My guess would be it's a small amount but quite often - not just special occasions at all.

I'm worried that a) the logic that 'he doesn't like wine I'll give him something else instead' and b) it's regular enough that, particularly with beer, he's going to be primed to go right into drinking more when he's 12/13.

I understand the argument that a little early exposure makes it less enticing, but tbh this is very regular and my 5yo is still clearly smitten with the idea that he gets a grown up drink and clearly thinks it's very cool, I don't know. It's also hard when I just don't know how much and clearly have no control over how it's scaled up in the coming years.

AIBU?

We'v had issues before - for example he used to leave them outside supermarkets in his bike (strapped but not locked in) while he did the shopping at age 3 and 5. Ie totally unsafe and they weren't happy with being left alone either. Anyway I phoned SS and police and they couldn't do anything about this. He doesn't do it any more, I don't think, but if he did I'd be pretty powerless.

French children are fairly polite IME!
I would be ringing the GP in fact rather than social services. Is your 5 year old in school? I'm assuming they have a place even if they are not physically attending school. You should tell them too.

In the UK I'd report this to SS and cease contact. It's a safeguarding issue -get the evidence - if possible. Text whatever -and cease contact. This is alcohol abuse at a young age.

French families do let their kids drink at meals, it's pretty much a cultural norm.

Pretty sure there's research out there that shows that French/European children from countries where this is a cultural norm have better relationships with alcohol.

I went to a french school - we would have a beer at lunchtime sometimes. It was pretty shocking for me age 16 to come to the UK and see the culture of binge drinking.

I went to a french school - we would have a beer at lunchtime sometimes
I bet you weren't 5.

I think the more you challenge him the more he will do things just to get back at you. As you know it's about control and revenge.

I would rake note and build up a picture for if/when there is enough for SS to intervene.

@drspouse No, It was middle school.

However, most children had drunk at home with their parents with meals from 5.

I think it's one thing to be giving your child watered down alcohol if it's a cultural thing - as PP said, it can actually encourage a better relationship with alcohol as they grow older because there isn't such a taboo/mystery. I do think 5 is a bit young though, whatever the law says.

However, it's another thing entirely to refuse to discuss it with you. He can't just give your shared child alcohol without giving you a proper idea of amount and frequency. That's unacceptable.

@Meeko505 God. He sounds like a nob.

If it’s any consolation my parents used to let us have a little beer in a similar way in the 80’s. I didn’t like the taste, but my younger brother did and it didn’t do him any harm. However that’s really not the point.
I don’t think this issue is enough to get SS involved though. Sorry I don’t have any more useful advice.

@RandomMess

I think the more you challenge him the more he will do things just to get back at you. As you know it's about control and revenge.

I would rake note and build up a picture for if/when there is enough for SS to intervene.

Yeah, I have been doing this, thanks.

I also found out a few weeks ago that (months ago) he got angry with the kids and tipped the kitchen table up when they were sitting at it so their plates fell on the floor and smashed. When I asked him about this he just said it was none of my business and, when pushed, effectively my fault for leaving him (I was in a bad place because of YOU).

It's so hard to know how much SS need for me to just say, look, he's clearly got a ton of issues and won't even discuss things with me.

I have a lot of friends who keep telling me to phone SS/school, whatever, but I'm already in regular touch with all of them and they all just sympathise but say not much can do. It's so frustrating.

Modern French parents do not routinely do this. I think he's doing it to annoy you, that's likely why he's started on the dot of five because that's what the law says. So I would try not to show you are annoyed about it. Not much else you can do - if it really is small amounts then it's up to him. Unfortunately it's one of the lovely (not) parts of shared parenting when you can't communicate with the other parent - you have to simply accept all of their parenting practices even those you do not agree with.

I live in France, I have never seen this with any French family I know and they definitely do not serve beer with lunch at school! The closest we've ever come to offering kids alcohol is a fizzy apple juice drink that comes in a bottle shaped to imitate a bottle of champagne called Champomy. Most children drink either water or Lipton 'ice tea' (a sugary ice tea drink flavoured with peach or lemon).

Unfortunately I don’t think he is doing anything illegal and whilst the French are not known for their binge drinking they are pretty high up on the alcoholism scale.

You could go to mediation over issues such as the table flipping (eeeek) and the beer. I would actually say that flipping a table and smashing plates the kids were eating from at the time is violent and threatening behaviour directed at them, whether he touched them or not is irrelevant, so you'd potentially have more mileage with that than objecting to the contents of what he is feeding them. Was that reported to anybody?

He doesn’t sound very French so he can’t really use that as a cultural excuse. If DS is having a small amount of beer once a week, as PPs have said it happens in a lot of countries and doesn’t seem to cause problems (although I think it would take more than letting children drink booze to disrupt the drinking culture in this country) so that may be a “grin and bear it” thing. His attitude toward you, on the other hand and the anger is more of a concern. If you weren’t in the room when he got so angry he threw a table, how on earth can he justify that? Do you have a contact order in place?

I would find that unacceptable. I know a number of people who were introduced to booze from a young age as family thought it was harmless - these kids often end up really hooked on it as an adult. Kids learn things much quicker than adults and there’s a lot of data to back up that younger smokers, drinkers etc find it a lot lot harder to quit than people who started later.

I was the other extreme (had my first alcoholic drink at 18) and if I was told I couldn’t have another alcoholic drink for the next 5 years, I would find it very easy.

Conversely, I had a lot of sugar growing up and so have found it hard to wean off that as an adult.

It’s not black and white but there is so much research to say people who start to drink earlier are more likely to become alcoholics, rely on alcohol to face life stress (not in every case though of course)

I remember being given wine to drink when I Was little, I always thought it was disgusting and put me off drinking until I was in my 20s!

I think there has been a change in the advice and it is now considered better for children to avoid alcohol until they are at least 15.

www.drinkaware.co.uk/advice/underage-drinking/the-law

I agree it is awful that he is using alcohol as a way of undermining your parenting decisions.

www.drugfoundation.org.nz/matters-of-substance/august-2007/drinking-like-the-french/

@BertieBotts

You could go to mediation over issues such as the table flipping (eeeek) and the beer. I would actually say that flipping a table and smashing plates the kids were eating from at the time is violent and threatening behaviour directed at them, whether he touched them or not is irrelevant, so you'd potentially have more mileage with that than objecting to the contents of what he is feeding them. Was that reported to anybody?

I've not mentioned the table yet because I only found out last week and didn't want to bother people. I might give them a ring for a chat tomorrow though.

I'm in touch with a domestic abuse service and they said they never recommend mediation for people where there is a history of abuse, whether it's emotional or physical, because it never gets anywhere, and tbh I agree we would not get anywhere with it.

(He was on few occasions physically aggressive with me, and definitely emotionally abusive and controlling.)

I think you're right. It's been hard in lockdown trying to juggle parenting and work and I haven't yet found the time but I wanted to phone a local law service and ask about whether I'd have a case to push for more custody, I don't know.

I live in France and have two young children and it is not the norm for children to be given booze at dinner time!
Like people say that pregnant french women eat Brie and rare steak - no they don't!! The advice is to avoid it.
Children may have a tiny sip of watered down wine very occasionally but that's it.

@nettie434

I think there has been a change in the advice and it is now considered better for children to avoid alcohol until they are at least 15.

www.drinkaware.co.uk/advice/underage-drinking/the-law

I agree it is awful that he is using alcohol as a way of undermining your parenting decisions.

Thank you for this! I've sent him this link and will see what he says about it or whether he even replied. It's true that just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's fine.

No, I know, it is a farce of an exercise really - I don't even know why it exists because surely, if you are able to get somewhere with mediation, you would have just been able to talk to them in the first place. But anyway, you go through the mediation in order for it to fail so that you get to the point of a court order. That can have its own drawbacks, though.

A lady I knew had real issues with her ex doing things like this. If she ever said anything she was criticising him and his parenting.

She actually self referred them for a parenting course. She said it helped loads as having an independent person telling him what she'd been seemed to work better. Plus, being in a group of parents who were on their last chance before losing their children made him see the benefit of working with his ex rather than against her.

The table-tipping is terrifying, and sounds far worse than an questionable and old-fashioned French attitude to watered wine/beer at mealtimes. This would be something to take action over. Have there been other incidents like this?