Annoyed that ex-h is giving 5yo alcohol and won't talk to me about it

[Meeko505]

My ex-h is half French and drinks wine with dinner often, but a few months ago I found out that he's been giving my 5yo son wine with dinner sometimes, watered down. I tried to ask how much and how often, but he wouldn't respond and said it was none of my business.

(Background; he was a controlling and emotionally abusive partner and since divorcing a year ago has tried to control me in terms of who I can see with the kids around and what the kids wear and I've not done what he wants, so basically whenever I have an issue with his parenting he just turns it back to that and says 'well, you didn't cooperate with me so'. I am in touch with a few people about his behaviour and a few issues we've had and will mention this to them, but I'm pretty sure there are no official channels that will help with this one.)

Anyway, yesterday my 5yo said he doesn't like wine so now Dad gives him beer in a cup instead .Again, I've sent messages for details on the amount and regularity but he hasn't responded.

My guess would be it's a small amount but quite often - not just special occasions at all.

I'm worried that a) the logic that 'he doesn't like wine I'll give him something else instead' and b) it's regular enough that, particularly with beer, he's going to be primed to go right into drinking more when he's 12/13.

I understand the argument that a little early exposure makes it less enticing, but tbh this is very regular and my 5yo is still clearly smitten with the idea that he gets a grown up drink and clearly thinks it's very cool, I don't know. It's also hard when I just don't know how much and clearly have no control over how it's scaled up in the coming years.

AIBU?

[Meeko505]

I don't know. I've mentioned to people before that they've been upset at his but obviously it doesn't mean he's abusive - could just be he's yelling at them and they don't like it, you know? There's no proof.

It is very tricky. I don't want to risk withholding contact and going to court if it might not go anywhere or, in fact, lead to a court order which means he is ordered to have a minimum of say, 3 days a week with them, which in my mind seems like it could give him an even stronger position than he has now. It's also worth saying he has a lot more money to throw at lawyers than I do.

The kids go up and down with wanting to go to his - at the moment the 3yo often seems to be happy to go and the 5yo is sort of OK about it, but the 3yo used to cry about going and the 5yo was mostly happy to go. Their feelings on it all seem to fluctuate a lot.

[MeridianB]

A 3yo and 5yo crying on the phone because their daddy is too angry is absolutely heartbreaking. He sounds abusive. Do SS know about this?

Could you not withhold contact and let him go to court?

[Stannisbaratheonsboxofmatches]

I can’t imagine any french family I know doing this - they are so into healthy eating and also strict!

My family background is Italian and we were allowed wine and water with meals sometimes. I remember once being allowed to take it to bed with me as a bed time drink- waking up in the night for a drink of water and it was so disgusting!

[qazxc]

I'm french and this "vin rose" would have been common at my grandparents house. I was born end at the end of the 70's. It would have been less than a centimeter at the bottom of the glass, just enough to colour the water. Not enough to get drunk on or cause liver damage.
So I am guessing that your ex is probably serving up something similar.
TBH all french children I know drink just plain water with their meals.

[SunshineCake]

This man is using your children to control you. Giving them alcohol and complaining when they use manners is obviously the complete opposite of what you and most sane people would do so on that basis, I would try and stop contact. It isn't safe for them to be drinking alcohol and contact should always be for the benefit of the child. Now I see the table tipping as well . Thank goodness the crockery didn't smash then pierce into their skin. What a horrible man and terrible father. Are both children boys ?

[otterturk]

I couldn't get too upset about this if it's a tiny bit watered down with soda/lemonade. My parents did the same from around the same age. It was a tiny tiny amount!

[boringusername2250]

and I've had crying phone calls from the kids because daddy is too angry etc

I would love to leave my husband but it is this that terrifies me.

[dreamingbohemian]

My husband is French, we used to live in France, no one I know would give alcohol to a 5 year old. Surprised to see some people saying it's still normal, maybe it's a regional thing.

The French might not binge drink as in the UK but they have a pretty staggering rate of alcohol abuse so this whole idea that it's a good thing to give kids alcohol is really misguided.

OP is your contact arrangement court-ordered? If not, would going down this route help put some restrictions on his behaviour? Have you ever spoken to a solicitor in addition to social services?

[CaffiSaliMali]

My parents let me have the occasional small sip of their wine or beer as a child, but never more than a sip and not very often.

On a French exchange in the early noughties the school took us wine tasting at a vineyard. We were 13 and none of us drank much as we didn't like the taste. I stayed with my French family for two weeks, attending extended family meals and none of the children were given alcohol.

I wouldn't be happy in your position OP. This isn't a joint parenting decision, and sounds like it's more than one sip a couple of times a year. I wouldn't give a child their own glass of booze watered down, and it sounds like he may do this every time he has them. If he wanted to embrace French culture with them he would be better off teaching them the language and serving them French foods. I doubt this is about embracing French culture though and is about sticking two fingers up at you.

The table incident sounds awful, they must have been scared

[Chucklecheeks01]

Is he doing this to get a reaction from you OP?

[Sailingblue]

It clearly isn’t a universal french custom given the different comments on the thread and given he didn’t grow up in France anyway it seems moot. I think there is often a bit of a romanticism about the french way but I think there are plenty of adults that are effectively functioning alcoholics even if there isn’t quite the same binging culture among younger people.

[SkaraBrae]

Where are all those wine-drinking 5 year olds???
I am French, and while family meals involved sit down 3 course and wine, no children had any!
I remember when I was about 12 my grandfather gave me watered down wine as a special treat. Once.

I'm in my early 40s and none of my friends have ever given booze to their kids?

Only experience in my family is my English MIL letting my toddler take a sip of her G & T...

[Notredamn]

I'm French-English and this isn't anything as acceptable as some would think.

[AndNoneForGretchenWieners]

My parents brought me and my sister up drinking small amounts of alcohol with weekend meals, so nothing was forbidden or seen as exciting. It worked as neither of us is fussed about alcohol - we can take it or leave it.

However your biggest issue isn't the alcohol per se. It is the fact that you are not on board with this arrangement and have asked for him to stop, and he is refusing. And with each update he sounds like he is enjoying using this as a way of defying and annoying you, rather than actually defending a cultural custom.

[Durgasarrow]

wtf

[cornish009]

Tbh he grew up in England and just spent holidays in France. He might have been given a bit of wine but he is much more culturally English and, I think, kind of romanticises French culture as it's something he probably always wanted more of as a kid

When my own children, now in their late 20s and early 30s, were young, during holidays abroad the waiters would always assume they could have some alcholol with their meals - eg automatically setting out a glass for wine and sometimes pouring it out for them. This was from age 5 onwards. This must have been in France, Spain, Italy and Greece, and was, I assume, just the done thing at the time.

[BiBabbles]

I'm glad you've gotten some advice on the legal side - I would be ballistic in your shoes.

Taking a cultural practice out of the culture pretty much means removes any benefits seeing the social norms of civil usage, so you only get the negatives of the health issues and deaths as discussed in the link a previous poster gave. Yeah, British binge drinking culture is horrible, but we can't erase the other issues cultures with a lot of 'cultural drinking' have or how those cultures have changed recently.

It's been repeatedly shown that early exposure raises risks of alcohol addiction and abuse in later life, even more so if someone has addicts in their family. I was raised in an American 'drinking culture', I can remember my brother being given wine coolers and even if it wasn't enough to get drunk on, he was still weird enough that I noticed and the adults were laughing. I wouldn't touch it, hated the smell, had a childhood of being called all sorts for not doing so, and sadly have seen others in the UK do the same to my teen for not wanting a drink at a funeral (he was 13 at the time).

I think calling it cultural makes these sharp dividing lines, but we can see from this thread and elsewhere, there is a wide range to cultural and it doesn't really change the risks.

[awesomeaircraft]

I was coming on to say the French don't do it this way (I am French) and it is to challenge you really. Just seen your updates about him tipping the table and kids calling in tears because dad is angry.

This is not a cultural issue. It is a safeguarding one. Can you tape the kids? I am pretty sure that it is acceptable in a court of law as evidence, but it may be acceptable to SS for non court negotiations. Hopefully someone will come along with actual knowledge of the system.

[LadyPerseverance]

My mother is French and I used to have watered down wine with my dinner. It’s just a French thing. It was never enough to get drunk from.

Saying that, I don’t know whether I would be happy to do that with my kids. But as it’s legal (age of 5, supervised, not enough to get drunk on) I don’t think you can do anything legally about it apart from asking him to respect your wishes about this.

[Ravenclawgirl]

I would be inclined to report this to SS. They may not do anything but if your son mentioned it at school and the school decided to alert SS, your ex could say you were complicit because you knew and did nothing.

[whataboutbob]

I’m part French and this is not normal. Earliest I was allowed watered down wine by my grandma over there was 13-14 years old. It’s a ridiculous thing to do and abusive. You could check this with your local CCG’s child safeguarding officer their views will be more pertinent than your ex H.

[TheBouquets]

It has been said that Police and Social Services would do nothing about the DC being given alcohol. The Police and Social Services did nothing about the children being left outside a supermarket.
How are children ever going to be safe if Police and Social Services will do nothing?

[Fizzysours]

They have updated guidance on giving small amounts of alcohol to under 18's to a definite no, as they can't safely metabolise any amount. So you can tell him this would be a safeguarding issue.

[Ickythumpego]

My kids are growing up in France. When we have a proper sit down meal , friends and family over, the wine on the table is there for everyone. I did raise my eyes for the first 5 years, but now Im used to it. None of the French teenagers I know binge drink. My own kids will take a sip but they don't like it.

[Lolapusht]

Your children have called you more than once in tears because their dad is too angry? Are they 5 and 3? Not sure what the legal ramifications are of stopping contact, but from what you’ve posted he sounds very abusive. The alcohol thing might be the least worrisome thing .