To not believe in policing spelling and grammar?

[Ethelfleda]

I used to, I admit.
But now - I think it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how language evolves and changes.
Language is not mine to own and tell others how to use!
I feel that the onus is on me, as the receiver of words, to understand what someone is saying - rather than the onus being on the person who is delivering it - to make themselves understood. Why cut the legs out from someone who wants to put their thoughts out there, by belittling them, when they just want to put their equally important views out for all to see?

Show me a person who ‘misuses’ reflexive pronouns. Who ends an email with ‘please do not hesitate to contact myself should you require further information’ and I will show you someone who is attempting to compose an email with absolute respect for the recipient. Not someone who is ‘incorrect’ with their grammatical structures.

So - go fourth! Use language as you see fit! It is wonderful and inimitable and it is YOURS! And I promise, I will always understand your message!

This post is probably written completely wrong. But please, dear reader, reach behind the order that I put the words in and try to understand the sentiment. And speak in return however you see fit.

I love words.

Context is important though.

Writing a general post it could be understandable, but e.g. say a poster writes something along the lines of:

I have been with my partner for for years and in all that time he has got progressively more controlling until yesterday when he grabbed me and pushed me up against a wall and threatened that if I annoyed him again he would punch me.”

And a poster replies:

“It’s four not for.”

There really is a time and a place, and correcting someone at that point makes the poster doing it look like a twat. And yes, I have seen this happen on MN.

Conversely however there are situations where spelling and grammar is more important. The one which gets me most is lack of punctuation because I use a screenreader so no punctuation means the text is read in one continuous string with no pauses at all and is difficult to follow. But I generally skip past.

And job applications. I have lost count of the number of job applications full of spelling mistakes. I once filled one in which was in word format, and when I spell checked it most of the mistakes weren’t mine.

And last week I saw a job application which should have stated as one of the tasks “to proof read communications for spelling and punctuation,” but which instead read “to proof read communications for spelling and puncuation.” I’m still deciding whether to bring that up in interview if I get one in regards to being able to proof read....

I think it's sad that we are letting the basics of spelling and grammar slip.

I can't believe how many adults can't tell the difference between something basic like of and have - "I must of"

They will go on to teach their children poor grammar.

And last week I saw a job application which should have stated as one of the tasks “to proof read communications for spelling and punctuation,” but which instead read “to proof read communications for spelling and puncuation.” I’m still deciding whether to bring that up in interview if I get one in regards to being able to proof read....

It just shows how much the organisation needs someone with those skills...

@Teacher12345

You don't need to police it but people need to be aware that if their writing is poorly written, others may decide to move past it, in favour of something easier to decipher. I am far from perfect but some people's work is illegible.

This. Absolutely this. If the grammar is poor I tend to move on.

YABU. Precision in language is vital. Careless language is how we end up with people taking their drugs twice a week instead of every two weeks...

janinlondon - yes, exactly, I was going to say that I work in a pharmacy and precision in language of vital importance, as is spelling, as is the ability to recognise arithmetic mistakes in dosage - in the pharmacy...

on a discussion forum - not so important.

I wish I had a better understanding of grammar.

Should I blame my inner city comprehensive school education where I couldn't hear what my teacher was trying to say above all the noise in the classroom, multiple children with special ed needs in the class, as well as one or two with no English whatsoever when they joined us... so very little attention from teachers.
Or perhaps my career focused parents, working full time, who weren't around after school and had a limited idea of how much attention I was giving my homework!
Possibly my dyslexia? I was absolutely exhausted by school most days, just trying to keep my head above water.

I did manage to pass English (and 9 other subjects) at GCSE level. And I got A-levels too.

When did everyone learn all they know about grammar? It must have gone over my head. I feel like i've just been muddling along.

"I feel that the onus is on me, as the receiver of words, to understand what someone is saying - rather than the onus being on the person who is delivering it - to make themselves understood."

I love the sentiment BUT

I don't agree with this...perhaps in more informal settings such as Mumsnet then potentially but certainly in the wider world (professional emails, life admin etc), it is important that people are able to convey their meaning properly.
I worry that if society took its foot off the pedal in the teaching of basic written communication to the extent of losing clarity in writing then that would be extremely detrimental.

I don’t understand why anyone would be upset to have their grammar or spelling corrected on MN.
Surely they would be grateful to have learned something and be spared making the same mistake again? It’s a chance to make up for a poor school failing to teach them basic english in the first place.
Lacking good literacy skills holds people back in life, and means their cv is less likely to land them a job interview.
Helping them to level the playing field is not being patronising, it is offering assistance in the same way adult literacy schemes do. Or do you think we should ban those too, OP, and leave people in ignorance?

Babdoc yes but there's a time and a place

YANBU. Pedants who obsessively want to correct other people's spelling and grammar on social media are exhibiting a fundamental misunderstanding of the medium's conventions. Social media is informal. It's language is, of necessity, abbreviations, emojis, slang. It is there for speedy communication. Phone keypads are small: typos happen. Predictive text complicates things too and an 'incorrect' word can no longer be read as evidence of a poster's perceived ignorance.

There is also snobbery over dialects and colloquialisms used in written social media, which are as valid a form of communication as so-called standard English.

Save the grammar police fixation for formal dissertations. Social media is not the place for it.

And just to prove one of my points, my phone has automatically changed 'its' to 'it's'. These things happen. It certainly doesn't mean I don't know the difference.

It might be annoying to be ‘called out’ on it but I strongly agree with people correcting grammar and spelling.

It’s essentially constructive criticism and we can learn from being corrected. I hate when people do it to point score though, that’s one of my pet hates.

I accept that split infinitives are now acceptable, insofar as they shouldn't be deemed to be incorrect, but "could of" and "should of" are completely wrong and should be corrected.

I agree that language is a living thing and changes over time, but I don't know how much time I need to be able to avoid cringing inside, and out, whenever someone uses "reach out", rather than "get in touch", "contact" etc. We have this on the wall at work:

Is it acceptable to use "reach out" in the work place?
Are you a member of the Four Tops?:

* yes - it's acceptable
* no - stop it immediately!

Kind of YANBU. I love language and grammar. Part of my job as an MFL teacher is teaching people correct grammar and spelling.

I admit that I find many spelling and grammar mistakes irritating, but that is my problem. Correcting other adults' spelling and grammar is not only rude but pointless. Adults are not looking to learn the error of their linguistic ways from random pedants on social media who pretend to think they are doing the world a favour by improving Spag, when they're really just being smug and superior .

But spelling and grammar mistakes aren't really the same as the evolving of the language (though they're not entirely unconnected). The vast majority of common mistakes are not going to lead to the incorrect version becoming standard.

I'm all in favour of teaching more grammar in schools. (Properly, as part of the literacy English curriculum, not all in a mad rush just for the SATs and then dropping it forever). It's frankly ridiculous that generations of British kids only learned anything about English grammar by the back door of learning an MFL. People are weirdly scared of grammatical terminology in a way that they are not scared by technical names in other subjects.

When did everyone learn all they know about grammar? It must have gone over my head. I feel like i've just been muddling along.

Most people don't know about grammar except what they picked up via MFL (or Latin, if they did it). People who use grammar well are usually big readers and were brought up by parents who read a lot and spoke with good grammar. The majority of them might be able to correct you by knowing what sounds right, but most probably couldn't actually give you a proper grammatical explanation of what you got wrong.

Most people don't know about grammar except what they picked up via MFL (or Latin, if they did it). People who use grammar well are usually big readers and were brought up by parents who read a lot and spoke with good grammar. The majority of them might be able to correct you by knowing what sounds right, but most probably couldn't actually give you a proper grammatical explanation of what you got wrong.

It's not taught in schools in the UK early enough, it's one of the reasons we are so poor at other languages.

The first time most kids come across the concepts of things like the subjunctive and conditional is when they are presented with them in high school French or German. Most of them have no idea what a reflexive verb is in English and suddenly they have learn the rules governing them in a totally new environment.

When kids start doing 'another language' they're really being expected to learn two simultaneously. The chosen language and the underlying rules of language itself.

It makes the learning curve too steep. It's no wonder they give up.

@labyrinthloafer

'lack of learning' please get over yourself.

IMO people obsessed with spelling are making up for insecurities about their own intelligence.

I am pretty good at spelling, but for some reason this issue just enrages me.

Well, it enrages me at the other end. And what is it if not lack of learning? Is it actually knowing and then choosing the incorrect grammar or spelling? Of course not.

And I have no insecurities or delusions about my intelligence.

Absolutely. It certainly makes teaching MFL a lot harder and more time-consuming. Most kids have no clue that equivalents to the grammatical structures they learn in MFL even exist in English, never mind how they work!

The last few cohorts of kids in English schools, who have done the current SATs format, will at least know some of the basics. I haven't taught MFL to those particular year groups, so I'd be interested to know whether the SATs spag teaching has made a difference for MFL teachers. I doubt it will have a big impact on adult grammar knowledge down the line though, as it seems to be totally and permanently ditched the minute SATs are over. I get the impression primary school teachers hate it!

I feel that the onus is on me, as the receiver of words, to understand what someone is saying - rather than the onus being on the person who is delivering it - to make themselves understood.

😂

I could not disagree more if I tried. If you want to communicate a point, the onus is on you to make yourself understood. Why on earth is the onus on the poor person you are trying to communicate with, who may not have invited that communication, who may not want it or be interested in it, to understand?

The evolution of language is fascinating and is NOT the same thing as an individual having poor levels of literacy.

I remember on my year abroad as part of my language degree, I was doing one to one classes with a student struggling with English. I asked what he wanted to concentrate on that week, and he asked for help with the gerund. My initial thought was "WTF is a gerund?" I also learnt around this time that there are two present tenses in English. Who would have known!

Certainly, having a good understanding of grammar adds clarity to, and can help avoid ambiguity in, your written English.

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross

I feel that the onus is on me, as the receiver of words, to understand what someone is saying - rather than the onus being on the person who is delivering it - to make themselves understood.

😂

I could not disagree more if I tried. If you want to communicate a point, the onus is on you to make yourself understood. Why on earth is the onus on the poor person you are trying to communicate with, who may not have invited that communication, who may not want it or be interested in it, to understand?

The evolution of language is fascinating and is NOT the same thing as an individual having poor levels of literacy.

This x100. Unfortunately this is also the prevailing attitude on the side of people delivering a communication.

This would be fine if they were the only ones missing out. Op, the people who struggle to communicate are likely to be the same people who will struggle the most with comprehending garbled messages.

Spelling mistakes because of dyslexia are of course excusable. Further predictive or corrective texts are annoying as often you type the correct word and it switches it for an entirely different word. Those types of things are annoying but nowadays expected.

However using myself instead of me marks you out as a bit of a knob.
Using incorrect words such as pacifically instead of specifically and loose instead of lose marks you down as having a low standard of English education. However, I would never correct someone online as I (as you state) can get the gist. In real life I might mention the incorrect use if it was someone who I felt would take correction in the spirirt in which it was meant (ie. kindly so they know going forward).

I feel that the onus is on me, as the receiver of words, to understand what someone is saying - rather than the onus being on the person who is delivering it - to make themselves understood.

I can go with this is if I'm communicating with someone who is learning English, though I'm sure they'll be doing their best to make themselves understood. However, if English is your first language, you should be able to do better than this.