To not believe in policing spelling and grammar?

[Ethelfleda]

I used to, I admit.
But now - I think it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how language evolves and changes.
Language is not mine to own and tell others how to use!
I feel that the onus is on me, as the receiver of words, to understand what someone is saying - rather than the onus being on the person who is delivering it - to make themselves understood. Why cut the legs out from someone who wants to put their thoughts out there, by belittling them, when they just want to put their equally important views out for all to see?

Show me a person who ‘misuses’ reflexive pronouns. Who ends an email with ‘please do not hesitate to contact myself should you require further information’ and I will show you someone who is attempting to compose an email with absolute respect for the recipient. Not someone who is ‘incorrect’ with their grammatical structures.

So - go fourth! Use language as you see fit! It is wonderful and inimitable and it is YOURS! And I promise, I will always understand your message!

This post is probably written completely wrong. But please, dear reader, reach behind the order that I put the words in and try to understand the sentiment. And speak in return however you see fit.

I love words.

I used to.

Then I met my dyslexic DP. He is very intelligent but has been very judged because of this. And honestly it is disgusting to think how annoyed he gets when he makes an astute point but people patronise him for spelling “great” as “grate”

That's great, but back in the real world, you will need to use correct, standard grammar at least some of the time if you want to be taken seriously and/or convey an unambiguous or accurate message

I agree. But surely the best course of action is for the recipient to check they’re understanding the point before responding, rather than belittling someone? And if we all did that, we could change the ‘real world’ ??

If someone is writing to ask for advice or to ask a question and the language they use is not understood by the audience they’re seeking to reach, then it defeats the purpose of writing in the first place.

As a writer, if you cannot deliver a document in a manner that is understood by the recipient(s) the issue is yours, not theirs.

There must be clarity in order that the message is not misconstrued.

You’re all so bloody intelligent that it’s intimidating at times. But I still want to engage in debate. And I still want to learn - but I want to be taken seriously in the meantime. Is that too much to ask? Is my writing unintelligible?

Then I met my dyslexic DP. He is very intelligent but has been very judged because of this. And honestly it is disgusting to think how annoyed he gets when he makes an astute point but people patronise him for spelling “great” as “grate”

This. If I was ever in a debate with your DP, I would want to understand his points - not be distracted by misspelling of ‘great’

On Mn, whatever. I won’t personally read something riddled with SPAG errors but I’m not going to arrive on a thread about A-line skirts, suicide or being ‘Wendied’ and point out that you lose friends/weight/hope, not ‘loose’.

However, in the rest of the world, when you see a solictor’s letter/reference/newspaper editorial/medical textbook/PhD dissertation that can’t distinguish between there/their/ they’re, contains no apostrophes and are you likely to be impressed? Would you like to see your children’s teacher never use capital letters or full stops?

I guess when it comes to a debate in particular, that it is important to me to treat your ‘debating partner’ with respect. And listen to their views. And to try see things from their point of view. And not resort to poking fun at how they use language.

Take it your split infinitive was on purpose!

I agree: I’m a complete SPAG obsessive and for good reason - I’m a lawyer and clarity is everything - but MN posts by often distressed posters, not so much

Can I ask though, if the person has made themselves understood - save for a few mistakes here and there - what is the reason behind pointing out their mistakes??

I think correct grammar is important in writing, as it helps clarity. Yes the language is ever evolving, but knowing grammar helps to structure sentences, appreciate literature and enjoy the way language is used. Interesting writers cleverly use grammar to get the most impact.

Take it your split infinitive was on purpose!

No! Please tell me the mistake I made! (I say this with all sincerity, by the way )

Has someone upset you OP?

Has someone upset you OP?

I promise you they have not.
I merely have the utmost respect for posters here and wanted to hear opinions on the subject. I have learned an inordinate amount since I joined MN many moons ago - and I want to keep on learning. This is just my current view on policing of SPAG.

I guess I’m hoping that if I post in earnest, I will be forgiven for not being within the upper echelons of MNs elite

I never pull anyone up as predictive text is often half the problem.
But if I see one more "could of" I will experience the kind of rage that develops lesions on my frontal lobes.

Not for adults unless they're an utter fuckwit. Yes to 'policing' children, it's how they learn.

As PP, English is my third language and I try to respect its rules, syntax and grammar as much as possible.

Judging by the dreadful use of grammar and poor spelling everywhere, from social media, news outlets and even teachers' letters, I don't think language prescriptivism is our biggest concern these days.

Just saying from a dyslexic point of view...

I can see the importance in good spelling and grammar in work, educational and literature.

However, if it's on threads or social media and you're worrying more about someone's spelling/grammar than the context....I think you probably need to become a bit more open minded and understanding why.

Some people may have dyslexia - undiagnosed or not and some people might not have been able to access education as well. Everyone is different.

Don't know about, or have any interest in MN elite. Sorry, I thought you sounded upset that someone had pulled you up for poor grammar on another post.

There is a time and a place for it. But generally on here the grammar police are just doing it to put someone down or kick them while down and make themselves feel better in the process.

I think on mumsnet it is generally unnecessary to police spelling and grammar and it is often a bit twatty to do so.
However, I am very quick to correct my children as I want them to speak properly. My dh grew up being taught to say "I seen" or "I done" and I wouldn't correct him but do correct my children if they repeat it. People judge, particularly poor grammar. I think the point about dyslexia is valid which is why I wouldn't correct spelling other than that of my children.

The split infinitive is in your thread title, @Ethelfleda: "To not believe". Technically, it should have been "Not to believe".

People tend to be more relaxed about this grammar rule nowadays though. See "To boldly go" in the Star Trek series.

It depends who has written the text and who is doing the policing.

I am quite happy to jump down the throat of some pompous arse who has thrown a lot of corporate sounding and self-important language in contexts where it confuses or obfuscates to make the writer sound more important (and in the industry I work in there's a lot of this).

But I think people who jump onto mumsnet and pick on people who are obviously poorly educated and obviously in distress who have written "must of" instead of "must have" and bang on about how hard it is to understand what they are saying are just arseholes masquerading as grammar police.

And people who pile on pretending not to be able to understand a thread when they understand it quite clearly but want the thrill of feeling superior to another poster with a poorer education than them are the lowest of the low.

I agree with you about policing minor errors and assessing whether the poster is doing the best they can. I hate the 'No paragraphs. Couldn't read.' type response.
I do hate the use of 'U' though.
And I do judge when companies put out poorly spelt documents.

English is my third language :) when people try to correct my grammar I just say thank you as I genuinely appreciate learning/correcting myself. However, there are times when people do it to degrade me and that's when I tell them to fuck off lol (in my head).

The grammar bullies on social media really, really annoy me. I follow news accounts on social media and when a 'breaking news' appears on my timeline, I tend to read the comments as well just to understand people's views. You will always find a couple of people losing arguments in the comment sections only to attack the user by correcting their grammar when they have nothing left to say as they have lost the argument.

I will not buy from a website that has incorrect SPaG. If the vendor cannot be arsed to get that right, then what care has been taken with the goods/service offered?

It's also worth being aware that with phishing emails the syntax or spelling isn't quite right, and this can alert you to the fact that the email isn't legitimate, although it may appear so in other respects.