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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is this Midwife out of line?

603 replies

SistineScreamer · 05/07/2020 17:41

Curious as to what others would think. My daughter just had her first DC yesterday. She had an elective section and is still in hospital. My daughter is young, she’s 24, Not married (and has no intention to) but been with her DP since they were 16. She’s had some MH issues, stemmed from ex husband of mine. This is all noted in her file and is a manageable, she’s had to come off her medication during the pregnancy because of risks to the baby but she was more than willing to do this. She’s in a private room and not on a ward. All this information is important as I assume this is why she was treated the way she was.

She rang me 30 minutes ago in tears. Telling me one of the midwives assigned to her has been horrible to her. We’ll call her Midwife A.

All this is what she says happened - First, DD had baby in a onsie and bib, midwife A came in and commented that the bib was too big for baby, took baby out of DD’s arms and removed the bib. Even if the bib was too big why completely undermine her like that? Next, DD brought wipes for her face, body etc they were baby brand water wipes as her skin is overly sensitive to anything else. Midwife proceeded to lecture DD that these were wrong and cotton buds must be used with water instead, proceeded to bin wipes then leave the room. Confused

Half an hour later Midwife A came back in to ask DD about her feeding choices. DD was sexually assaulted and does not feel comfortable breastfeeding, her choice. Midwife proceeded to give her the breast is best talk, asking why she wouldn’t consider breastfeeding, basically making her feel like shit for picking formula. DD mentioned she’d purchased a perfect prep machine for the formula (you know the ones that give the perfect shot of hot water at night so you don’t have to faff about with the kettle?) this woman nodded, left the room and came back 15 minutes later with a print out of the perfect prep machine....asking DD to confirm if this was what she was talking about. Nodding and tutting. What the fuck? Even if she wanted to know what DD was talking about, why print it out and bring it to her? Why not look it up herself? Hmm

Next issue came with the drip that was in DD’s hand, it was ripping the skin, physically pulling up the skin. She asked Midwife A if she could take it out or change it, to be told no nothing could be done. She’d just have to suck it up. An hour after she was told this another midwife came in, Midwife B, she begged midwife B to take it out and showed her what it was doing to her hand. Midwife B promptly took it out stating that there was no problem. Midwife A came back for her checks, asked DD what happened to the drop. DD explained that midwife B took it out, midwife A mumbled something about how that couldn’t be right and she’d have to check that ‘story’ right away. Hmm

DD is still vulnerable after birth, can’t move yet because of the catheter and has to be changed by this woman who she feels uncomfortable with and intimidated by. This woman has to handle her naked, change her sheets and I feel from what she’s saying it’s making her MH worse. She says she feels like Midwife A is talking about her with the other midwife (not B) on duty who she seems friendly with, shared looks, little smirks, off comments.

The looks and such could be DD’s dislike for this midwife raring up. But the rest, is this normal! I feel like she’s over stepped the mark and made my child feel low because of her age and choices. Should we ignore this?

OP posts:
OrchidJewel · 06/07/2020 12:10

How is your DD today op? Is she feeling safer now you are there?

makingmammaries · 06/07/2020 12:13

OP, I remember the rudeness of some midwives from the one time I gave birth in the UK. You are right to complain. Hope your DD recovers quickly and all goes well for her and the baby.

Graphista · 06/07/2020 13:03

TERF you are furiously back-pedalling now!

I agree with op and others that the tone of your posts was very antagonistic and dismissive. The implication of them being ops dd was “making a fuss about nothing” perhaps you’ve been doing your job too long?

Like calls to like generally speaking too so I’m not surprised the medical professionals you know also have a poor attitude towards patients needing understanding and who are more vulnerable than others for various reasons.

“Getting on with their job” should have at its HEART the CARE and compassion for the patients they’re treating.

But then as I said I really think the quality of hcps is deteriorating, at least in part due to poor pay! You pay peanuts...

I trained over 20 years ago and on ward was trained by nurses who many would consider traditional “matronly” types. They were/could be quite stern - with staff! But they were ALWAYS kind, compassionate and understanding with patients and woe betide any trainee they caught NOT being!

That’s long since gone! Along with (in my and MANY other older hcps opinions) other certain areas of good practice from good infection control to good nutrition to good practice on basic skills and more. There are good hcps still but my god they’re a vanishing breed!

complaints as you would know are not just about resolution but learning and improving I think TERF is not well or appropriately trained in customer service, which is why I am genuinely curious as to who they work for/who trained by as I’d be avoiding them like the plague! Customer seen as nothing but an inconvenience!

The issue is her being a FTM with mental health issues making her vulnerable. I completely agree, there’s huge prejudice against women with mental illness becoming mothers.

I wasn’t diagnosed until after I had dd but I have a relative and several friends who became mothers after a MI dx and all were treated appallingly by the hospital midwives.

@SuckingDownDarjeeling I am so sorry you went through all that that’s horrendous!

@Tippexy - still unacceptable! That’s not a good enough reason at all.

@LadyofTheManors - also appalled at your story wtf!!

I wonder where the issue is. Is it training? in my opinion it goes right back to recruitment. Having higher ACADEMIC entry requirements and making nursing and midwifery graduate professions may SEEM a good idea but it’s largely meant that the people best suited to these roles who generally are more common sense, worldly wise people are excluded from even applying.

There’s too much emphasis now on academic ability and attainment in these professions now, and not enough on recruiting people and encouraging the aptitudes and skills of compassion, empathy, understanding and kindness.

I doubt many people go into it when they don't feel passionate about supporting women with midwifery in particular there’s an issue with applicants thinking it’s all about cuddling cute babies!

I think there’s also now the issue of applicants simply wanting a job/qualification that’s recession proof and they’ll always be able to get a job!

It’s not seen or treated as a vocation any more.

when this isn't the case with other healthcare professionals. it’s really NOT just midwives.

I’ve had many issues with hcps since getting a MI dx - once you have a dx it’s INCREDIBLY hard to be taken seriously for any other health issues. I’ve even had other physical ailments I already had dx for - with evidence from surgeries, scans etc - doubted as “real”!

And why does it always seem to be the case across women's health services?

Oh don’t get me started! Medical misogyny is a HUGE issue not just in the Uk. I started a thread some time ago on the issue and the stories were shocking even including fatal outcomes for some patients.

@LadyofTheFlowers yes on that same thread it was noted that children suffered as they are most often represented by women/mothers

Its 2020 and we are still telling women to shut up and mind their tone. totally agree with this whole post!!

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 06/07/2020 13:37

@0963158b

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

She wasn't remotely aggressive, don't be ridiculous. And your opinion, in context, was incredibly callous. You're gas lighting.

Her replies to anyone who has a different opinion have been aggressive. If you only want to vent and have advice on how to proceed with a complaints process, that fair enough but the AIBU thread is to get both sides of the argument and other people’s opinions. To then be rude and aggressive to anyone who slightly disagrees is ridiculous. It’s not gaslighting to point this out.
MulticolourMophead · 06/07/2020 13:52

I agree with Graphista.

Women's health, and in particular in maternal/gynecology areas, is appalling in this country. I've seen a huge amount of misogyny associated with services used exclusively by women.

And adding in MH issues, and it's no wonder women get a raw deal.

Someone1987 · 06/07/2020 14:26

I hope your daughter is doing better today and she comes home soon with your grandchild.

I am going to have to leave this thread, as it is very triggering, having given birth seven months ago. I'm so sad to see others have experienced the same. It seems very much hit and miss. My sister had lovely midwives, then I get awful ones. I can't get bitter. I need to move on.

beargrass · 06/07/2020 14:32

@LadyofTheManners "But has anyone ever noticed them whenever a thread pops up about MWs and general pre and postnatal care, there are always, always, lots and lots of us who have been treated appallingly, some to the point of ending up with MH issues as a direct result of being undermined and all but abused by people who are supposed to hold a position of trust and care.
Why is this a thing? And why does it always seem to be the case across women's health services?"

I was thinking this when I read the OP. I was treated appallingly by a MW. Told asked to pack all my stuff at 3am and move onto a ward. I'd had emergency surgery that afternoon as lost a life-threatening amount of blood (PPH) and was barely able to walk at 11pm/midnight. I was in floods of tears but I was made to pack and leave. This was after I'd had the temerity to ask for help, then not got it, then asked again. I hold the view that she'd decided I was a PITA and her shift would be easier if I was moved. (I'd sought help with my newborn plus some water for me, please. It was nothing outrageous by any stretch)

We did the "birth reflections" session which, so far as I could make out, was just a way of seeing who had a genuine claim against the hospital. They had zero to offer me on all the issues that had cropped up and their letter to us might as well have been for someone else entirely, it was so far from what we went there to discuss. It had clearly been heavily lawyered.

I think MN did have a better maternity care campaign. Maybe it should be sorted into groups of issues (eg before, immediately after birth, post-natal and first year, then by things like sexual assault in the past, pressure to BF etc) and resurrected. There's a need for more to be done highlighting these inexcusable stories that we hear time and time again.

SistineScreamer · 06/07/2020 15:46

Hello, everyone. Thank you for the messages of support, I am both wholeheartedly grateful that some of you have shared your experiences and also appalled at the treatment some of you have went through. I use the word 'treatment' lightly. Daffodil

DD is so much better after an almost full night's sleep. Midwife A has not been on the scene as promised, DD is better because of it. Ward sister has said we can be discharged tomorrow all being well with DD passing urine, her catheter was taken out last night and she was finally able to shower this morning. She seems so much brighter after that and some decent sleep.

All, I was aggressive to those implying my DD was delusional or a liar. I know her, I know her MH issues and I know her form. When someone implies my child is delusional or hysterical because she doesn't want to be treated like crap? Yeah, I'm not gonna be polite to those people.

OP posts:
SistineScreamer · 06/07/2020 15:48

Ooh, it was not the 'pressure' or midwife A's support for BFing. It was the fact that DD had stated she did not want to repeatedly but was still made to feel shit. Adds even more to the fact that DD is an assault survivor and this is part in parcel as to why she does not want to bf. There was no attempt made to read her notes or her history.

OP posts:
ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 06/07/2020 15:55

There should be no standard pressure to breastfeed when someone has been sexually assaulted and is undergoing treatment because of it...

There should be no standard pressure period.

nowayhose · 06/07/2020 15:59

@ SistineScreamer

I have to admit that I haven't yet had time to read every single post, but having read several pages and all of OP's posts, I'm saddened by the posters who seem to think the OP is making a huge fuss about nothing Sad Angry

This is most definitely NOT nothing ! A vulnerable person has been bullied and intimidated at a critical time in her life Angry

I work in the NHS and am horrified at the treatment she has received at the hands of this midwife Angry Sad

The midwife has NOT behaved professionally, nor has she been very perceptive of the distress she has caused. Confused

The fact that she has omitted to tell management details ( throwing out patient property etc) shows that she is simply trying to 'cover her own arse' rather than actually being genuinely sorry to have upset the patient Angry

The complaint from you and the ongoing investigation will at least mean that this midwife will have to reflect and evaluate her role in distressing a vulnerable patient.

Please ignore all the posts suggesting you're creating a 'storm in a teacup', and continue to support your DD as you have been. As far as going forward, I'd also be asking the ward sister what actions she is taking to ensure you, your DD and the ward sister herself can be confident that this never happens again to any other patients.

Make sure you also log your experience on the trusts online site, as it's important to share both the good and the bad experiences in the trust. It helps make sure that complacency and whitewashing has no place in any NHS trust.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 06/07/2020 16:01

@SistineScreamer I'm so glad to hear your DD is feeling much better. Hopefully now she can go home soon. Please keep an eye on her in case this experience has affected her more than it seems now, particularly feelings of doubt about being a good mother/looking after the baby.

You've done really well to advocate for her and sort this out. If she feels up to it support her into making a complaint once she's discharged, but no pressure as life with a newborn is so hectic and tiring.

Will she have you around for a few days once home so she can catch up on sleep and start to deal with everything?

Shallow07 · 06/07/2020 16:03

Your poor DD Flowers I hope she can be discharged tomorrow and start enjoying her beautiful baby at home.

I can definitely empathise with how difficult it can be in the postnatal period after a C-section as a victim of sexual violence; it's very triggering to feel other people are trying to control you and having to give up your bodily autonomy because you literally can't move. I'm still coming to terms with my birth in this way, and my baby is 6mo and the midwives were kind to me. Your DD will be fine in time though and I'm sure she'll be a great mum.

Hope you're enjoying the newborn snuggles OP

Shallow07 · 06/07/2020 16:05

Also, 100% complain as this hasn't been anywhere near acceptable. The trust may offer a debrief, they need to explain themselves imo.

Mummyof2girls5and10 · 06/07/2020 16:12

I had a similar experience when I was 24 and had my first dd by c section. I felt so angry for you and your daughter when I was reading your post. I aswell called my mum crying and she came up to the hospital and spoke to the head nurse at the desk. That midwife couldn't apologise enough after that and asked if I wanted to be assigned a different midwife I accepted her apology and said I was happy to stay with her. She was very attentive and supportive for the next 3 days I was in hospital. So yes definitely complain about her

LadyofTheManners · 06/07/2020 16:15

[quote beargrass]@LadyofTheManners "But has anyone ever noticed them whenever a thread pops up about MWs and general pre and postnatal care, there are always, always, lots and lots of us who have been treated appallingly, some to the point of ending up with MH issues as a direct result of being undermined and all but abused by people who are supposed to hold a position of trust and care.
Why is this a thing? And why does it always seem to be the case across women's health services?"

I was thinking this when I read the OP. I was treated appallingly by a MW. Told asked to pack all my stuff at 3am and move onto a ward. I'd had emergency surgery that afternoon as lost a life-threatening amount of blood (PPH) and was barely able to walk at 11pm/midnight. I was in floods of tears but I was made to pack and leave. This was after I'd had the temerity to ask for help, then not got it, then asked again. I hold the view that she'd decided I was a PITA and her shift would be easier if I was moved. (I'd sought help with my newborn plus some water for me, please. It was nothing outrageous by any stretch)

We did the "birth reflections" session which, so far as I could make out, was just a way of seeing who had a genuine claim against the hospital. They had zero to offer me on all the issues that had cropped up and their letter to us might as well have been for someone else entirely, it was so far from what we went there to discuss. It had clearly been heavily lawyered.

I think MN did have a better maternity care campaign. Maybe it should be sorted into groups of issues (eg before, immediately after birth, post-natal and first year, then by things like sexual assault in the past, pressure to BF etc) and resurrected. There's a need for more to be done highlighting these inexcusable stories that we hear time and time again. [/quote]
I agree

I did actually make a complaint about my care when I had my son, as throughout my pregnancy it was a total nightmare. I had a nervous breakdown and nearly lost my entire family down to it.
It took them 18 months, 18 months, of supposed deliberation and investigation into my complaint, which resulted in 2 pages of "we looked into it", "we don't agree" "you forgot to update us" "lessons will be learned" and finally, we did nothing wrong.
They were wrong on all points. They never answered when I commented that I was twice sent info and test results for other people. They never answered when I said nurses were deliberately ignorant when I knew I was in labour and told me I wasn't and left me for 6 hours until I collapsed.
I do wish I had taken legal action, but I was so tired and medicated and trying to repair my family unit so didn't.

okiedokieme · 06/07/2020 16:20

The midwifes manner seems very wrong but both the issue with the perfect prep machine (it's not hit enough to sterilise properly) an that wipes aren't suitable to wash newborns is correct - washcloths and water are kinder on skin, kinder on the environment and very much cheaper once you have bought the cloths (try amazon), as for the perfect prep, if the report's are correct I don't know how they can sell them - use boiling water and a kettle when baby is newborn to be safer.

EnlightenedOwl · 06/07/2020 16:20

@SistineScreamer

Hello, everyone. Thank you for the messages of support, I am both wholeheartedly grateful that some of you have shared your experiences and also appalled at the treatment some of you have went through. I use the word 'treatment' lightly. Daffodil

DD is so much better after an almost full night's sleep. Midwife A has not been on the scene as promised, DD is better because of it. Ward sister has said we can be discharged tomorrow all being well with DD passing urine, her catheter was taken out last night and she was finally able to shower this morning. She seems so much brighter after that and some decent sleep.

All, I was aggressive to those implying my DD was delusional or a liar. I know her, I know her MH issues and I know her form. When someone implies my child is delusional or hysterical because she doesn't want to be treated like crap? Yeah, I'm not gonna be polite to those people.

This is great. But do follow up the complaint x
myrtleWilson · 06/07/2020 16:26

@okiedokieme

The midwifes manner seems very wrong but both the issue with the perfect prep machine (it's not hit enough to sterilise properly) an that wipes aren't suitable to wash newborns is correct - washcloths and water are kinder on skin, kinder on the environment and very much cheaper once you have bought the cloths (try amazon), as for the perfect prep, if the report's are correct I don't know how they can sell them - use boiling water and a kettle when baby is newborn to be safer.
But a) the wipes were for the DD not the GDC and b) irrespective of who they were for, the MW had no right to throw them away.
TJ17 · 06/07/2020 16:27

@okiedokieme

The midwifes manner seems very wrong but both the issue with the perfect prep machine (it's not hit enough to sterilise properly) an that wipes aren't suitable to wash newborns is correct - washcloths and water are kinder on skin, kinder on the environment and very much cheaper once you have bought the cloths (try amazon), as for the perfect prep, if the report's are correct I don't know how they can sell them - use boiling water and a kettle when baby is newborn to be safer.
It's your opinion that water is better to clean baby but that does not mean "wipes are not suitable" just because you don't want to use them.

Wipes are suitable for purpose. They say so on the packaging and were perfectly fine for my child 🤷🏼‍♀️

LadyMacbethWasMisunderstood · 06/07/2020 16:31

Op. I am very pleased to read your update.

I am mother to a highly intelligent but very vulnerable 19 year old daughter who has had a serious MH illness (severe anorexia in her case). I often have to speak up for her. Particularly when dealing with her heath care needs. I hope when the time comes (if it comes) that she is a mother I will have the strength to advocate for her as you have done.

Well done. Best wishes.

Billyjoearmstrong · 06/07/2020 16:32

If anyone is interested in reading on perfect prep (there may be lots of parents reading who are interested) this is quite a good article

www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2016/01/is-perfect-prep-formula-machine-really.html?m=1

They are hot enough to kill bacteria.

The issue is mainly that people don’t read instructions properly and don’t regularly check and clean through the pipes and the clean/change the filter.

I’ve known people never to change - or even look at - the filter, use the thing for a year, clean it up to sell it and are then horrified to find the filter is mouldy and start lamenting on what terrible contraptions they are.

They need cleaning and the filters changing, any warning lights that come on due to temperature problems need to be checked out immediately. Most problems occur from user error as with a lot of products.

beargrass · 06/07/2020 16:35

@SistineScreamer I'm so glad to hear your DD is feeling better. You're right to complain.

@LadyofTheManners I'm so sorry to hear your story. Well done for keeping going for 18 months with it. For example, I knew there should have been an investigation/review into part of my experience because of the amount of blood I lost. I pointed this out and they got arsey.

I've spent enough professional time in complaints to know I'd have had to keep going and going (which ordinarily I would, I'd have made it a side project and seen it through) and I honestly didn't have the strength.

I think this is why nothing changes. The intel needed is always lost because in the end, the kafkaesque system isn't broken. It was designed like that to stop us getting anywhere. If you have an advocate then maybe you will fare better with complaining, perhaps?

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 06/07/2020 16:42

I do wish I had taken legal action, but I was so tired and medicated and trying to repair my family unit so didn't.

And this is what they rely on, otherwise the system would change. But nope, let's make hormonal,tired,often traumatised (mentally and physically) women jump through hoops and do all the work(that tends to be dismissed/lost/ignored anyways) .

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 06/07/2020 16:45

washcloths and water are kinder on skin, kinder on the environment and very much cheaper once you have bought the cloths (try amazon),

No one cares what your opinion or preference is. No one has to try anything. Mothers are perfectly capable of making decisions and choosing things that work for them and their baby.

The wipes were for the mother not the baby anyways.

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