To think 'big food' industry is to blame for the obesity epidemic, not individuals?

[aintnothinbutagstring]

When I read on MN, and when I talk to people IRL, there's an underlying attitude to obesity that it is all down to willpower, or lack of, and individual choice over whether to be fat or thin. If we all tried a little harder and were disciplined, everyone could be their ideal weight.

I recently got on to reading some books on processed food, they are not new concepts, the ideas have been around a while. Lots of scientists and MDs from the US, where the obesity epidemic is a little further down the road than in the UK, have written about the addictive nature of processed food, books such as 'Wheat Belly', 'The Dorito Effect', Robert Lustig has done many talks on it. In the UK, Joanna Blythman has wrote quite a bit on the UK food industry.

Some have linked processed food to activating dopamine receptors in the brain so it works like other addictions. Yet cannot escape it once we walk into a supermarket, most of what is for sale there is very highly processed food. It's all sugar, salt, wheat, the bad fats (processed oils like rapeseed, not natural fats which are healthy). Flavours created by amazing scientists so you'd rather eat the flavour chemicals than the actual food.

Yet we are telling obese people, some of whom may be using food addiction to deal with past trauma, lifestyle stress etc, 'it is your choice, what you eat, you need to try harder, have more self respect, more willpower'.

I see obese people now as 'you are a victim of 'big food', the companies (only a handful of global billion pound companies) that produce and cleverly advertise and use supermarkets to sell this highly refined, highly addictive processed food'. If they were educated and told it's not their fault, they might decide they don't want to play the 'big food' game anymore.

Plus parents buy into the belief that children need to eat little and often, promoting a grazing, snacking culture.
It really isn't necessary. Build the habit of three (or two or one) meal a day and the body quickly adapts.

Personal responsibility plays a part but temptation is constantly at play, it’s for the benefit of society for us all to be healthy so surely the easier we make it for everyone the better. Lack of time, money, education and other psychological factors make it difficult for people to make the best choices.

Interesting article here which busts the willpower myth, lots of interesting research on this www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/2018/1/15/16863374/willpower-overrated-self-control-psychology

The deck is stacked against you for sure. It’s willpower in the extreme as temptation is everywhere. So many ways to educate yourself for free though. Lots of healthier foods (at a higher price) but it can be done.
The food companies will just go for what makes money. That’s what they are all about after all.
People in general eat far far too much, it takes so much willpower to stay a healthy weight. I wish the food companies made it easier for us but I don’t hold my breath

No. But I do think we need more education about food because there are lots of people making terrible choices. And yes, of course there are some people who are eating processed junk because that’s all they can afford/access. But that’s not the case for most people.

The reality is that people have become so accustomed to constantly eating high calorie processed stacks and meals that they think it’s normal to do that...

I think we need a huge educational campaign across schools, baby groups, etc to get the message across -

I haven’t read the whole thread as this is a very sensitive issue for me, but I just wanted to mention that there is a very established link between obesity and trauma including child sexual abuse, and it’s important to be sensitive to things like that.

I'm very aware of the link to childhood trauma and obesity and other addictions, it's within my field of study. Even more reason why food manufacturers, the food industry, supermarkets, should take some responsibility in what foods are available to us. Someone who is dealing with trauma, well they're surrounded by poisonous food that makes them addicted, and does nothing to nourish them, and it is so much harder for them to make good choices.

On a different point, I don't know how people can even buy food from companies like Nestle that promote formula milk and crap baby food in developing countries where it is all round best for everyone, financially, health and hygiene-wise, that infants are breastfed for as long as possible.

One of the few things as a person you have complete control over as a person is your weight and how much you eat.
Blaming ‘big food’ companies is just shifting blame and trying to take the easy way out.

As someone who has just lost 4 stone, and who never blamed anyone but myself for my weight issues (oh and my toxic mother for raising me with an unhealthy relationship with food) I still only blame myself for my weight gain. The same way I am responsible for my loss and hard work maintaining it.

Yes, medically there are some people who struggle with their weight control but generally it is about self control... it was me who shoved copious amounts of calories in my mouth and didn't move enough to counteract them. No one made me do it.

I am fitter than I have ever been, and slimmer than I have been for some time. My weight loss isn't down to "diet food" any more than my weight gain was due to "fat food" because I have come to learn that there isn't diet and fat food. Just unhealthy amounts of food.

The availability of food is undoubtedly a factor but you can't get fat if you don't eat it. To lose weight a fat person has to literally do nothing, just abstain from eating so much.

People don't want to eat lentil and veg soup, they want a pepperoni pizza. Too stupid / uncaring to change their attitude.

I always am amazed at how people are so reluctant to admit that food is health. What you eat contributes yo your health, and can be its downfall.

But people will come up with every excuse in the book to not admit this: oh I'm big boned, it's genetic, I've tried to lose weight it's too tough, etc etc.

I have to mention the 'treat' culture too.

Everything these days has to be a treat! A latte and a muffin, double fudge ice-cream, takeaway, wine, etc etc Oh, I deserve it etc. This culture didn't used to exist!

Not sure how true this is, but I've read a few times that the bacteria in your gut adapt to what you eat and that it can affect cravings. So, if you eat a lot of junk your body craves it.

On the subject of dopamine, I have ADHD which usually causes low levels of dopamine. It's documented to cause 'pleasure seeking' behaviour which can involve eating sugary stuff - untreated ADHD typically results in a 14 year reduction in lifespan from what I've read. I certainly find myself wanting to shovel chocolate into my mouth long after I'm totally stuffed and bloated (like three rolls of jaffa cakes or an entire cheesecake and still craving more) but I generally manage to resist the temptation. It gets easier as it becomes routine.

What about eating disorders like anorexia? I recovered from that 10 years ago but who would you have blamed for my illness? I am a sexual abuse survivor. Lots of childhood trauma. I could easily blame society and my childhood. I recovered only because I took responsibility. Not because anyone else was responsible.

@aintnothinbutagstring

I'm not really just talking about the typical cookies, cakes, chocolate, fizzy drinks. I mean pretty much everything you buy in a supermarket, even the things that look healthy are incredibly processed. The wholemeal bread, the 'healthy granola'. Pre cut fruit and veg in bags has been sprayed with preservatives that don't have to be listed on the ingredient labels. We have a thing called 'clean labelling' to make bad things sound good. We are told to avoid to avoid saturated fat when we should be avoiding sugar and refined carbohydrates, and refined omega 6 oils which are literally in everything.

It's not about any of that though. NOTHING on that list is inherently "bad" there are no "bad" foods.

It's quantity in v quantity out.

If you are consuming too many calories and not using them all efficiently, you will start storing fat.

Also, can I point out... this isn't just about just consuming fresh foods i.e fruit and veges in place of other foods. I have IBS and cannot consume large amount of fruit and vegetables because they contain fodmaps, I have still lost 4stone since Sept.

I actually don't count calories. I eat things that are typically lower in calories and less of it than before. But I still have high calorie food because I have learnt moderation.

But putting the blame on the individual has so far not worked That's because individuals don't want to take the blame. They are (me included before I started working hard at it) looking for the next big fix to help them lose weight, WW/SW/Michelle Bridges/Lite n easy etc. People want ease, it doesn't exist.

caused by the shit food we are being sold. Shit food people buy... no one forces you to buy it.

@Goosefoot - What he said is that essentially, once you are overweight, it is very very difficult to lose

Hmm, odd. Because I lost 4 stone just through eating better and exercising. Pretty much what I should have been doing all along really, and this is since Sept, so I wouldn't actually say it's very very difficult to lose weight. It's a mindset for the large % of people.

Perhaps if people stopped using the word "diet" and "diet food" our minds would shift. I eat food. I no longer consume more calories than I use and I move way way more. My weight loss wasn't through "dieting" it was through better eating in a way that can be maintained for the rest of my life (which it will have to be in order to control my IBS - which weight doesn't impact/cause, food does - mainly fruit and veges to be honest). It's well known that diets are faddy, and do not educate people how to eat well. Of course you gain when you stop following one, that's how the companies make their money.

@aintnothinbutagstring children's cereals contain huge amounts of sugar, sweets, chocolate, soft drinks

Again, NONE of that causes obesity! The amount you consume, as well as inactivity does. You are so focused on blaming the industry that you forget we all have free choice (well, the majority of us do) about what we consume, and how much.

@aintnothinbutagstring - I don't know how people can even buy food from companies like Nestle that promote formula milk and crap baby food in developing countries where it is all round best for everyone, financially, health and hygiene-wise, that infants are breastfed for as long as possible.

Ahhh, so you can attack people for buying formula, and for buying products from a certain brand that YOU don't like, yet you don't understand how people can't use that same willpower and conviction that YOU have to not buy processed and junk food?

Do you see what you did there? You can excuse the buying of food that leads to obesity, but not the buying of food that harms others... starting to which I didn't get so invested...

Oh and who do I credit with my weight loss/getting fitter, op? I am obviously not to blame for gaining weight, so shouldn't take credit for losing it. I didn't use an "traditional diet" method either, so no one to thank there... it's a mystery.

@Geraniumblue

I think there is a huge gap in this country for making making healthy cheap food something that everyone can cook and prepare for themselves at home. There’s slew of fancy cooking programs when really we could do with something that’s similar to good student cooking. I’m not convinced that buying crap food is cheaper than buying healthier; Eggs, lentils, beans, apples, bananas, chickpeas, potatoes, onions, carrots, flour, oil all cheap. But you need skill and knowledge to things together in an in interesting way.

As far as cost, it is and it isn't. If you have a tight but not awful budget and can cook, you can do well with healthy things.

But it's a bit different when your budget is so low that you know you have to skimp on necessities, or you may run out of money before payday, maybe a week or more before.

All those healthy foods, people need to eat a fair bit of them to be satisfied, especially children. Lentil soup is great, but it will not keep a lot of kids over until the next meal. When you are shopping that way the whole mindset id different, you are looking for bulk, fat and protein, and stuff that will fill a belly, all as cheaply as possible. Vegetables aren't inexpensive, particularly out of season, but more importantly, they don't stick with you long. That's even without accounting for picky kids or lack of cooking ability or appliances.

*wish

@TornadoOfSouls

Of course the cheap availability of heavily marketed junk is a factor. Yet millions of people in the UK are not fat. So they are managing to shop in stores full of crap, yet eat healthily

This is definitely true, but if you watch eg old Top of the Pops or similar it’s astonishing how slim almost everyone is. We’ve all got bigger. Some of that is better nutrition but I think the availability, cost and range of cheap high-calorie food has had an effect across the board.

This is just it.

People haven't changed in terms of their basic human make-up. But people used to be far more often slim. Even middle aged people who were heavy tended to be a certain body type. In old pictures of elderly people they were often quite thin.

Part of it may be, I think, that culturally we no longer teach absinance and self-control as significant virtues. There is some of it with regard to dieting, but that's not really normal eating. But as a consumerist culture, we train people to give in to their whims and desires all the time, put things on credit, if you want something, you need it. We don't expect kids to do things that are hard, we think it's terrible to ask them to work. All of that bleeds into every part of life. And self-restraint takes practice, and we don't get much of it.

But it's also about what is available, lifestyle, and the food that our lifestyle pushes us towards. Some of the big risks for obesity are things like eating in the car, or high screen use, etc. Those things don't make you fat, they mean you probably aren't eating healthily a lot of the time, and aren't getting enough sleep etc.

Hmm, odd. Because I lost 4 stone just through eating better and exercising. Pretty much what I should have been doing all along really, and this is since Sept, so I wouldn't actually say it's very very difficult to lose weight. It's a mindset for the large % of people.

And yet that's not what the statistics say for people who lose and manage to keep off weight long term. There is a reason scientists look at data and not anecdotes.

The data also suggests that there are foods that particularly cause problems, sugar seems to be the big one. Also that being obese can affect both your brain and body chemistry in a way that makes losing weight more difficult than just eating the calories the average slim person does.

If that's true, and you really haven't said anything to suggest it isn't, than once you have a lot of obese people, you are going to really struggle to make them slim again, and it will also be rather unpleasant for many to eat that way in the long term. It would be far more effective to change the cultural elements that resulted in so many people becoming overweight.

Perhaps if people stopped using the word "diet" and "diet food" our minds would shift. I eat food. I no longer consume more calories than I use and I move way way more. My weight loss wasn't through "dieting" it was through better eating in a way that can be maintained for the rest of my life (which it will have to be in order to control my IBS - which weight doesn't impact/cause, food does - mainly fruit and veges to be honest). It's well known that diets are faddy, and do not educate people how to eat well. Of course you gain when you stop following one, that's how the companies make their money.

This x1000.

My best mate has porked it in his early 40s after being pretty slim all his life. His ex was really into fitness etc but his current partner is all about the chocolate and prosecco and he seemed to be happily indulging until he suddenly 'realised' he'd got pretty fat.

He's no panicking about his beach holiday and keeps trying out all these crazy fad diets like fasting and eating 500 calories a day etc. There's no way he's going to manage to continue eating nothing for several whole days of the week but like most people he seemingly wants a quick fix.

@aintnothinbutagstring

I agree it can effect the brain, and finding the motivation to change is hard. But let's not pretend it's impossible, because we run the risk of making people sound weak.

People gain after a "diet" because they deprive themselves while on their "diet" and don't learn moderation or cals in v cals out. They also do not move enough. That's also why they fail, because they deprive themselves of food they like, instead of moderation, so end up bingeing on it. Almost everyone I knew (inc myself), once finishing a diet gained because of the above. Dieting teaches nothing.

It has been quite a journey to lose what I have, and for months I avoided all sweet foods because I know sugar is my downfall. I have lost the taste for it now, so no longer worry. Having 2 children and a husband, these things were always in my home, and managed to avoid them. I rarely snack and eat nutritiously in order to combat hunger between meals. That said, I don't deprive myself (unless it would interfere with my IBS) of anything.

makes losing weight more difficult than just eating the calories the average slim person does

In fact, as an obese person you wouldn't need to (indeed wouldn't want to) go straight down to the amount of calories the "average slim person" consumes.

But knocking a lot of them on the head would be a start and give you something to further improve on.

@NewNameNewShoes Exactly! I have a lady at work who is unhappy with her weight (she isn't big by my means, she just feels she is) and has tried all sorts of diets, inc fasting and the 2/5 or whatever is called (where you restrict for so many days and eat what you like for others) and she isn't losing and isn't happy.

She even saw a dietician, and was a crazy eating plan. Lost but gained it all again as it wasn't sustainable outside it's use to lose weight (not maintain)

She asked me what diet I am on, and I told her I wasn't on a diet... she didn't really believe me.

No, the cost isn't more to eat healthy (to whoever wrote that- won't let me tag) Gets on my nerves when people say that, salad and veg are the cheapest things on my shopping list ffs! I'm not disagreeing with the rest but also people need to open their minds instead of saying a the usual unhealthy food is cheaper