To think 'big food' industry is to blame for the obesity epidemic, not individuals?

[aintnothinbutagstring]

When I read on MN, and when I talk to people IRL, there's an underlying attitude to obesity that it is all down to willpower, or lack of, and individual choice over whether to be fat or thin. If we all tried a little harder and were disciplined, everyone could be their ideal weight.

I recently got on to reading some books on processed food, they are not new concepts, the ideas have been around a while. Lots of scientists and MDs from the US, where the obesity epidemic is a little further down the road than in the UK, have written about the addictive nature of processed food, books such as 'Wheat Belly', 'The Dorito Effect', Robert Lustig has done many talks on it. In the UK, Joanna Blythman has wrote quite a bit on the UK food industry.

Some have linked processed food to activating dopamine receptors in the brain so it works like other addictions. Yet cannot escape it once we walk into a supermarket, most of what is for sale there is very highly processed food. It's all sugar, salt, wheat, the bad fats (processed oils like rapeseed, not natural fats which are healthy). Flavours created by amazing scientists so you'd rather eat the flavour chemicals than the actual food.

Yet we are telling obese people, some of whom may be using food addiction to deal with past trauma, lifestyle stress etc, 'it is your choice, what you eat, you need to try harder, have more self respect, more willpower'.

I see obese people now as 'you are a victim of 'big food', the companies (only a handful of global billion pound companies) that produce and cleverly advertise and use supermarkets to sell this highly refined, highly addictive processed food'. If they were educated and told it's not their fault, they might decide they don't want to play the 'big food' game anymore.

Just to add another side note.
You’re lucky if you’re not addicted to this shit. I’m not. I’m lucky.
I’ve taken drugs and I was lucky not to get addicted
I’ve smoked and I was lucky not to get addicted.
Doesn’t make me morally superior

Obviously there is an element of personal responsability, just the same as criminals have personal responsability. But if you find that setting up certain systems within society lowers criminality, why not do that? The same applies if putting limits on processed food and promoting good quality natural food at affordable prices, would lower obesity, high blood pressure, diabetes, resulting in less health problems, why wouldn't you do that?

I'm in NZ, the second fattest country in the world. My family eat healthily, but most around us simply don't. The message of society is that eating rubbish is normal, and this is in a very conformist society.

Right from when my children were young, they were getting one message from me, and another from their environment. It's difficult to overcome that, and awkward to criticise the food choices of your friends when your children ask you about them. For all my efforts, I wouldn't be surprised if my kids simply adopt the Kiwi diet of fish and chips, more chips, pies, fizz, beer, sweet red gloop called ketchup, sweets, KFC, burgers, CMOT Dibbler sausages, with next to none if the excellent local veg gracing the plate.

I should add the the quality of basic foodstuff here is really good. Lovely seasonal fruit and veg, excellent fish, delicious beef, lamb and pork etc. The only problem is that it's a bit expensive, but it's still cheaper than takeaway.

But no, it's chips and white bread all the way. Good cooking has never been seen as a valuable skill here, so people resort to fat, salt and sugar to make things tasty. Also, to put it bluntly, a lot of people have no clue what tasty, healthy cooking is like, and so they don't have the first clue about how to model good diet to children.

To those who say it's all about individual choice I say that all choices are influenced by environment. If you don't know how to make healthy, tasty food and you haven't the time to learn, and if everyone around you regards not eating chips daily as "un-Kiwi", it's hard to rise above that environment.

YABU I'm fat because I am lazy and love food. That's all there is too it. No ones elses fault.

The thing is, none of the scientific research supports the willpower thesis.

In fact if you look at research on willpower in general, not food related, it suggests that a lot of what people think is willpower is really not. It's more to do with being in a good situation, having established the right habits all along, access to money, and just plan not wanting to do the thing they aren't supposed to all that much.

So all these people who think they don't do bad things because their willpower is great - maybe it has a lot more to do with your circumstances being good than you think.

Another interesting point about willpower - it is limited. We all have so much, and that is very much dependent on circumstances. People who are under a lot of stress have less of it, and people who have to use a lot of willpower in one area may not be able to stretch it to another.

I'm not sure why people don't understand the implications of calories per dollar when people are trying to buy food on a small budget. There are people who struggle to put enough food on the table who are overweight, it is not nearly as simple as, if you are fat you must have extra money to spend on veg. People in that kind of situation, who often are on an unreliable income, also tend to overeat dense calorie foods when they have money even though at other times they may go without.

There are people who struggle to put enough food on the table who are overweight.

Without meaning to sound facetious, how do these people get fat without enough food?

@NewNameNewShoes

There are people who struggle to put enough food on the table who are overweight.

Without meaning to sound facetious, how do these people get fat without enough food?

There are a few things.

One is that not all food is actually created equal. Food can cause obesity but not actually give adequate nutrition. But it's very cheap and immediately filling. These foods often affect metabolism in unusual ways compared to "real" food as well, it really isn't quite as simple as calories in calories out - IIRC they have recently found genetic markers for people who metabolise some of these things differently. Scientists don't really know how ultra-processed foods are metabolised but there are indications that they behave in strange ways. And if people are eating this stuff all the time, even if at times there isn't enough for health, it will still make a lot of people fat.

Often people in these situations have food insecure as well. They will have money at the beginning of the month but they know that chances are, they won't at the end. This really affects the food choices people make when they shop. They tend to go for shelf stable foods, they don't take chances with things the kids might reject or that they could cook in the wrong way. High calorie and immediately satisfying are also what they are looking for, so fats and carbs.

There can be a tendency to binge when there is more money, and also buy treats rather than spend a windfall, that might not be repeated, on something like fresh veg. Because if treats are a rare thing you take them when you can.

People in these situations also have other less direct issues - they may be getting food from food banks which is often poor quality, kids getting free lunches or breakfast program food which tend to be processed things like they'd get at home. There are substantial numbers of kids for whom those kinds of free meals may be their most regular meals. If that's where you are turning for food you eat what they give you.

The other thing a lot of people don't realise is that when people aren't eating quite enough calories, the metabolism changes and the body will work hard to store fat, it's a protection against starvation if food dries up entirely. It's something a lot of dieters have to overcome but can kick in oif you are food insecure.

Follow the money. Corporations make us corpulent.

Ok, so with will power you can hold out against the onslaught of advertising and convenience foods but we should be asking why we live in conditions that encourage us to overeat in the first place.

@DemolitionBarbie
One would imagine because cheap processed addictive food is a trillion dollar Industry.

Many many obese children and adults are actually suffering from malnutrition.

One third of Native Americans are obese

One fifth of the general population of america is obese

Are the native Americans simply lacking will power feckless and lazy?

I quietly still give my girls (11 and 13) their food and mine on smaller breakfast plates not large dinner plates. I reckon they eat about half to two third the portion size of other kids. They both beautifully slim unlike many of their peers who already eat the same portion size as dh and are noticeably fat. Think they will thank me later!

So. How do people lose weight?

Majority of people don’t lose weight permanently and obesity is growing. This is why the diet industry makes millions of pounds. A minority of people lose weight permanently and often they will have gradually changed their lifestyle habits (not just food wise) over a period of time. For it to be successful there are a number of other factors- stress, movement, education, sleep, money, access to food. To make weight loss permanent is difficult that’s why gastric bands are on the up.

People will lose weight I believe with joined up approach of personal medical advice, support group/worker, complete overhaul of food industry and retail and restaurants and take aways and advertising.

There should be a national "Great British" diet (lose weight, with a few variations inc low carb, low calorie) and a national menu (maintain weight). Every single place that sells food even a Starbucks needs to have selection of items for both. And no snacks or sweets (except sweet shops) only meals. Sweep away aisles of crap in supermarkets just like happened with cigarettes. Junk food brands will improve or go under.

Six months ago I'd have said such a massive change could never happen...

Completely off topic but @TomPinch are the CMOT Dibbler sausages a branded thing or just what you call them? (Are they just the squeak of the pig?) 😁

All the people I know who've lost weight and kept it off have had a better motivation than "losing weight". They've done it after a health scare caused by their weight or (more often) because they got into exercise, often to try and lose weight initially, but when their sport becomes important to them, that becomes a real motivator - to get faster/stronger, they clean up their diet.

The best example is a friend I met when my DC were small (18 years ago). She was very overweight, snacked on chocolate constantly and drank 2 litres of diet coke per day. Rarely cooked because pizza etc was "cheaper" (it's not, but people often seem to think so). She was also depressed.

She took up running, the couch 2 5k programme, primarily to help with her mental health. She has lost more than 4 stones, is now a triathlete and no longer takes medication for the depression. Her diet is completely different, she understands nutrition, she cooks from scratch and drinks only water. Food is still very important to her, she doesn't leave home without knowing she has access to food, but it will be some nuts or fruit now and she really enjoys a good meal but it will be good quality protein, vegetables and wholegrain carbs (to fuel the sport) not pizza .

Ok

@UltimateWednesday yes, I agree

People always say sport does not matter and it is 90% diet

However, the two are intrinsically linked.

Wanting to get fitter and better at your sport is a huge motivator

Much more than “looks” imo

We all make individual choices and it’s not like people don’t know that snacking on apples is healthier than feasting on Pringles. If I get my hands on a box, I probably won’t be able to stop till I finish it, so I make a choice not to spend my hard earned cash on rubbish like that.

Despite working 12-hour days at the moment and caring for the ill family member and a child, I still make a choice to cook 90% of our meals from scratch with soups, grilled veggies, salads and chicken being staple foods. I also make a personal choice to exercise for at least 1 hour a day. Sometimes I have to force myself to do this and yes, I get tired and get achy and out of breath, too. Obviously an easy choice would be just to slouch on the sofa with a take away. I’ve been there and done that and subsequently gained weight and felt horrible about myself. So I don’t choose that for myself and my family. However, before anybody jumps on me - I don’t care what other people do.There are millions of free tasty healthy recipes out there as well as hundreds of free YouTube workouts. People know about them, they know the dangers of not making the right choices about their health and they still choose that box or two of Pringles. It’s called an individual choice. While people continue to make these choices, these companies will exist. Think about some of the shops that have gone out of business...so yeah, it’s possible to get some of these big food giants disappear but will we make that choice?

I actually think too much focus on weight loss can be equally damaging. As a child I was slim and active, but mam was overweight and forever on a diet. She put me onto slimfast shakes when I was 11, and I was growing up (growth spurts) and hungry. If I asked for seconds or extras she looked at me like I was an alien, and so I began to sneak and hide food because I was hungry! The food I was fed also easnt great - I didnt like 'cooked dinner veg' but absolutely love carrot batons, peppers, mushrooms, onion, tomatoes, aubergine, courgette etc. I didnt try those until uni. Tea was usually packet pasta or pizza or birds eye chicken with spaghetti hoops etc. By comp I was obsessed with being small and was a size 6 from 11-16 which took great effort. I barely ate and exercised ridiculously, as in an hour in the gym then hour boxeecise and maybe an hour circuits after it. I did this 5times a week at least and was super fit. I was often miserable. I gained weight in 6th form when I sustained a knee injury, and I also began eating the same stuff my friends did. I went the other way completely. In uni, I yoyoed and ate a lot when not dieting as an attempt to binge and not feel as restricted at home. When I dieted I would eat small amounts and weigh myself multiple times a day. I got confused as what was healthy with all diets out there. Not helped by an attitude growing up with mam where having 1 cream cake wasnt enough, you should have 2, and if you said no youd be told 'stop being so miserable, you can diet again tomorrow '

So my attitude to food and weight is totally fucked. If I weigh myself or even track calories I know full well that I will become obsessive again . Even just the mindset of ' I shouldnt have x' is damaging bbecause I'll deny myself then binge. No food is good or bad and labelling it that way doesnt help. I'm trying something new to me - eating when hungry , stopping when no longer hungry, eating what I fancy for the main (although I fancied pizza last might and told self if I still want it by the weekend I can), trying to incorporate lots of fruit and veg, and generally enjoying my food. I've aero bubbles, m and ms and maltestrs in my fridge. Usually I'd tell myself I couldn't have it and by 10pm be binging. Ive told myself I can have it if I want it, and because it's not forbidden its just seen as food, I'm finding I'm not really craving it. So my diet is more nutritious than ever but I'm really trying not to scrutinise my eating. Today's breakfast was porridge with a spoon of hot choc powder and raspberries, lunch I'm planning on leftover homemade vegetable rice and tea is thai curry with lots of veg, naan bread and mango chutney. Snacks ste probably carrot batons and hummus, maybe a yogurt and some extra fruit. I may have some chocolate later or I may not

But I do think the whole good and bad foods, healthy or unhealthy eating, focusing on weight loss, mindsets is do damaging. Even if my mum hadnt put me on slimfast my perceptions would have prob been skewed by me and dad having burger and chips, her having salad and then binging on a 6 pack of crisps later. Our actions impact our children's whole outlook massively. I dont have children, but if I do, I'm really gonna make an effort not to discuss weight or calories in front of them. I'll feed us all nutritious meals, not one member eating salad while others have burgers, and I certainly won't deny them food if hungry as that just makes more problems. Not to say theyd have free reign over tbe chocolate! But if they wanted a second helping of dinner then that would be fine

@Immigrantsong

Obesity is mostly a first world problem. It is painful to even discuss this when the rest of the world is dying of hunger.

The rest of the world dying of hunger?

We're at a point where more adults are overweight than underweight and where conditions related to obesity cause more deaths than malnutrition. It is very much not a first world problem.
Have we really not progressed beyond thinking that anywhere outside of a few select western countries is one giant WaterAid advert?

[quote Immigrantsong]@IagoWithABlackberry
I stand by what I said and I prefer keeping the focus on poverty stricken countries and BAME struggles.

I can't believe that anyone would discredit so many people's well documented struggles in regards to poverty and all that smacks of white privilege.

It's telling that BAME issues rarely matter as much as first world white issues and your view is proof of that.[/quote]
I'm not discrediting them, I'm just pointing out that obesity is not SOLELY a first world problem and it doesn't benefit anyone to pretend that it is. There are plenty of obese people in poverty stricken countries and in impoverished parts of richer countries. They are, more often than not, malnourished. Their problem is not lack of food, it is lack of nutritious food.
Besides, it's a thread about obesity. Obesity is a problem, it's currently a more prevalent problem than lack of food and people on this thread are discussing it. If you want a thread about poverty stricken countries, start a thread about poverty stricken countries, coming on here to say that you find even the discussion of obesity "painful" is little more than virtue signalling. It is possible for two problems to exist at once.