WIBU to say no to bailing BIL out?

[YeahWhatevver]

Really struggling to work out what to do.

DH and BIL are relatively close. BIL has never been great with money, definitely lives for the moment. Has in the past had quite a bit of credit card debt and has previously struggled with managing his money. He has (had) a decent job BIL and SIL both work, though SIL is 2 days a week. They have 2 kids.

DH and BIL inherited just under 90k each about 2.5 years ago from their Mother's estate. Nothing was ever discussed about what they were planning to do with it, we put a lot of it into the mortgage or set it aside to put into the mortgage when our fixed term ends (want to a out early repayment fees) and have put some aside for our kids (first cars/bit ot money for college)

Looks like BIL spent most of his - none of our business it's his to use as he wants.

BIL is looking like he'll imminently lose his job. And called up DH asking of he has any of mum's inheritance left as he's in a bit of a spot a figure of £25k seems to have been banded about. Annoyingly DH said yes, we've got quite a bit in savings, so BIL knows we could if we wanted to

DH has previously "loaned" BIL money for it to never be returned fully.

Our family and BIL's family have similar incomes. So it's not like DH has got lucky while BIL has been dealt a bad hand in life.
BIL has a lot bigger house, 2 nice cars lots of personal finance

I can tell DH is protective of his brother and wants to help but I really want to just say no. We've made plans around this money, made sacrifices to be in the financial position we are now and I don't see why we should squander those plans to bail out someone who has failed to take responsibility for themselves.

Problem is, I can see this creating a huge rift.

WIBU to speak to BIL and say no?

Imo it's not fair on the BIL or the rest of his family to have the rug pulled out from under their whole lifestyle overnight.

That's BIL's and his family's problem to deal with. It's not OP's family's responsibility to prop their unsustainable lifestyle up by sacrificing their family's financial security.

@FishyDuck

But it isnt a loan. They wont get that money back.
It sounds as though the couple have enough debts to pay, as well as a large mortgage. What's leftover from selling will not be enough to buy another home, repay all their debts and return the money.

So how much money should the OP and her husband hand over to the feckless brother? They have children to pay for; university fees etc. How much should they give up? H9e many extra years should they work? How many more hours a week should they work to get that money back and provide the life they have planned for their own children?

Seriously. Answer those questions. And then honestly tell the OP that it's fair they make those sacrifices.

The BIL has been in debt for years. Has lived above his means for years. Has made bad decisions with money for years. Why is it up to the OP to fix it? Especially when to do so, they sacrifice their children's uni fee payments.

The brother inherited 90K. He could have used that to settle all his debt, maybe a smaller holiday (instead if spending 16k on a holiday) and kept some in the bank for security. Instead, he used it to invest in properties with his mates (without clear plans for selling) and then continued to pile on more debt.

The house of cards has come crumbling down but the warning signs have been there for years. This isnt sudden or unexpected. This is his irresponsible choices coming back on him, after years of stealing from Peter to pay Paul.

FishyDuck

Have you been in a similar position to BIL?

It really is the only reason I can think of for you to have this position on the issue.

What's more unfair.

BIL’s family gets the rug pulled out from underneath them overnight and need to seriously adjust their expectations to something more aligned to their income.

Or,

DH and I give away the fruits of our efforts to live appropriately, save and plan for the future to someone who has done nothing to deserve it.

@YeahWhatevver

It's always easier to be altruisitic with somebody else's money. . .

I'm under no illusion it wouldn't be a loan. While we might see some of it back it wouldn't be for a very long time, I'm certain would be in a piecemeal fashion and would probably require a good deal of persistence on our part.

DH loaned 4k to BIL 7 or 8 years ago and got less than 3k back and only after nearly 2 years.

Absolutely not YANBU

I would point bil in the direction of StepChange to manage his debts into an affordable payment

It won't end at 25k, BIL will squander it and you will have to bail out again.

I would consider agreeing to some sort of monthly amount while he looks for work, any work not current job,. And I would be clear it is a loan.

FFS FishyDuck you don't give up do you
Perhaps the OP should move her family into a caravan so they have the funds to support BIL and his family
BIL and his wife need to take responsibility for their reckless spending and start living within their means

Also I suspect going by BIL’s wording when he asked Is there was any of mum’s money left. BIL doesn’t see it as loan from his brother it’s his mum’s money which he feels entitled to.

I can’t see in any way shape or form how anybody can justify asking for or agreeing to giving away such a huge amount of money when they giver has their own family to care for.

It’s good for BIL to have the ‘rug’ pulled from under him, he needs a short sharp shock to start taking responsibility for his own actions.

He has a high paying job, aviation is really well paid, why hasn’t he got a financial buffer?

He needs to step up and take responsibility and face the repercussions of is feckless untenable lifestyle.

Fact is BIL can not afford the lifestyle he is currently living. No matter if OP & her husband hand over the entire £90k the BIL will be facing exactly the same scenario a few months later.
I suppose Fishy will suggest that OP and her husband hand over their salary and sell their house to fund BIL’s precious lifestyle then.

BIL needs to drastically change his current lifestyle. He can’t afford it, he’s never been able to afford it.

I know of one family member who had the brass neck to tell his sibling when they inherited that they didn't need the money and should hand their inheritance over to him, and then really pop off and feel most aggrieved when they declined to acquiesce. . .

This isn't about being kind of supportive to BIL though.

It's about having the sense to see that giving him money will do absolutely nothing to improve his situation and everything to bolster up his entitled 'Ah, someone will bail me out!' attitude which got him into this in the first place. You might as well literally flush the cash down the loo, 25k won't save this person's house or business, he's more likely to use it on some stupid additional investment which will 'definitely come good this time' - or blow 10k of it on a nice holiday because they've all been so stressed.

The BEST way the DH could help BIL is to say no, nothing. To give him the massive shock he really, really needs, and the sooner the better - NO you can't live like this, you can't just pretend that money isn't real and steal beg and borrow and waste to have baubles and trappings and then just ask to take everyone else's funds when you run out.

This is possibly the best thing that could happen to them. If they do go bankrupt or on a debt management plan or whatever has been suggested NOW, before they get any nearer retirement/no more mortages age, then they have a chance of getting themselves solvent again.

And, you know, there is also the family relationship to consider. So, you already loaned BIL 4K before he got his windfall and had to fight to get 3k back and he never even made good the rest when they had the inheritance?

I tell you something OP, your BIL despises your DH - just as any selfish, entitled, thievy scumbag despises the people they can manipulate to get more out of. And you can't pretend that's a good family relationship forever, either. If there's one other good thing to come out of this it might actually be that your BIL gets some respect for the fact that his brother isn't there to serve his every need. That would be nice really, wouldn't it?

Gosh, a long post justifying why you shouldn't lend him a penny and I haven't even got to the simple fact that 99.9% of responsible parents would laugh in your face if you said to them 'I've pissed away my inheritance, can I have the savings you've put away for your kid's futures, please?'

It's always easier to be altruisitic with somebody else's money

Exactly. I don’t believe the poster telling OP to give 25k away has actually ever done that herself. It’s always so easy to be generous with someone else’s money.

@fishyduck if the OP's DH had paid off their mortgage with the inheritance then his DB would have the rug pulled anyway. There's only one way to get through this and that is to make serious changes in lifestyle. Even if he swallowed up the £25k unless he does that then nobody can help him.

Fact: You will never get this money back.

Fact: If you budge and lend it to him, you will look at them every single time and know that he took advantage of your family knowing that he could.

Fact: You will resent him

Fact: This money is for your children and family. It will eat at you knowing it was given away.

OP if I were you I would be prepared to be the bad guy and say hell NO. Your dh agrees with you but he is being emotionally manipulated.
He is in this mess probably because everyone has enabled him before and there wasnt a need to be responsible.
Well it's time to learn right now.

I’ve seen this so many times before when I worked in the City. People get paid £££. Some people are savvy enough to understand that the good times won’t always be there and use bonuses/high salaries to invest or put aside for a rainy day. Others match their spending to their current income without a thought to the future....and then tend to come hugely unstuck if there’s a bump in the road. Sounds like BIL is very much the latter type.

Unfortunately, he’s not going to be able to maintain his current lifestyle unless he finds a similarly paid job. Has he considered - realistically - how likely this is? (In all fairness to him, I do have some sympathy here. Becoming a pilot was always considered a pretty “safe bet”; riskier than being a GP, sure - but not like being a derivatives trader, or something like that.). Because he needs to be really honest with himself here. Does he need a bit of cash to tide him over for three months, or has there been fundamental structural change in his industry which means he’s likely to have to look at doing something different....and probably less well paid, which involves a pretty radical change to how he and his family live their lives.

Given his history of not repaying loans, I’d be reluctant to give him money anyway - but you have to suspect (unfortunately) that he’s more likely to be facing the second of the scenarios I outlined above....

I'd say no

He might not even be a pilot. OP just said aviation industry didn't she? There are lots of jobs going in that sector at the moment, plenty of them not even as well paid as a pilot. It could be even worse.

I would consider agreeing to some sort of monthly amount while he looks for work, any work not current job,. And I would be clear it is a loan.

I wouldn’t. And especially not while SIL is only working two days a week.

Nope I wouldn't let him do it. It's going to be the thin end of the wedge. Plus if they've both recently had 90K and he's squandered it he needs to learn the hard way to cut his cloth or this lending will continue for the rest of your lives.

I would consider agreeing to some sort of monthly amount while he looks for work, any work not current job,. And I would be clear it is a loan

He hasn’t paid back their last loan! He had 90k and blew it in 2 years on frivolous stuff like 16k holidays and fancy cars. What’s the point of “making it clear it’s a loan” when he hasn’t even paid back the last loan?! They will never see that money again. He isn’t going to pay it back.
The idea of giving him a monthly allowance when he’s a grown adult and his wife chooses to work part time is absolutely ludicrous

@Russellbrandshair

I have actually- an aunt of mine was in a very precarious position and facing bankruptcy. We pulled together as a family and money was found from different sources to help her, on the understanding that some of it would be repaid when possible. I contributed a substantial sum.

That is what families should do imo- they should be looking after each other and providing support when possible. The OP's DH has funds available so I think it would make sense to use them productively in helping the BIL.

@PersonaNonGarter

Warren Buffet: It’s when the tide goes out that you see who’s been swimming naked

They’ve been swimming naked for too long. It’s awful when debt crashes down on people but they will be absolutely fine and happy again once this is sorted - which it will be even if it takes a while.

Brilliant line from Warren Buffet.

on the understanding that some of it would be repaid when possible

So, if she had the money and didnt pay it back what would you have done then? Because thats the scenario the OP is in isnt it?
He has ALREADY borrowed money and hasn't given it back- why didnt he pay it back when he had the 90k?

Also, I disagree thats what families do- families dont shaft each other when they've blown their money on crap. I love my family and would never treat them like that because I care about them.

@fidhyduck Did you lend her 25k? And did you take that money from a fund you had intended for your children’s future? Because if so your aunt is a horrible horrible person