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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Think we're illegally in this house.

127 replies

Beccy82 · 03/07/2020 10:36

Hi guys. Really need your help plz? I moved into this house in February 2020 with my 4 children, private rental. Haven't had a tenancy agreement but I didn't when I private rented yrs ago either so no problem. In march I had a letter address to my landlord and his ex wife. I told him but he hasn't collected. Since then i've had 9 unopened letters for him.
Yesterday my daughter told me there was a letter in the door so I said "open it and pass it here please" I was washing dishes. It was one of the letters for my landlord. Obviously I shouldn't have read it but seen it said from mortgage express so I did read it. It said this.

Following our previous correspondence with regards to the possible lettings of the above property (my house), to date we have received no further contact from you.

Please note that it is a condition of your loan that you cannot let this property without our permission. To date, this permission has not been granted and you may therefore be in breach of your mortgage conditions if you are letting the property.

Wtf do I do? He's obviously letting the property to me and my family. The previous tenants lived here for 10-11 yrs. Are we going to get kicked out? I'm on tenterhooks here now. I finally found the house i've been looking for and i'm worried sick we'll get kicked out.
I have proof from bank statements that i've paid him rent every month since march. I don't have proof for the first months rent or the bond that was paid in february because my parents paid that but they'll have proof. But again, I don't have a tenancy agreement. All I have is the rent payments and all our messages from him saying what date I can have the key etc.

Please can anyone help?

OP posts:
namechange123779 · 04/07/2020 00:27

It sounds like your landlord has a residential mortgage on the property , he's in breach of his mortgage terms he needs to contact the lender as you have evidence of payments you have not done anything wrong. Your landlord needs to sort this , any lender would struggle to evict you. If you have land lords address you can return the letters with his address good luck x

DelphiniumBlue · 04/07/2020 15:16

Please do not listen to legal advice from unqualified people.
The worry in your case is that Mortgage company has been alerted to the fact that LL is letting. Either someone has flagged this up with them and they are now seeking to find out what's happened, or more likely, he is in arrears and so has drawn attention that way.
Most lenders will agree to letting, but they may charge for their consent, and will want to move to a commercial mortgage rate. There maybe retrospective costs for the LL, or he may be ignoring everything. Is he paying the mortgage at all?
If he is in arrears and they obtain a possession order against him, you may find yourself in a very difficult situation.
In your shoes, I think I would open his post and check what they are saying ( despite the fact that this would be illegal.)I would ask him ( to his face, so you can see his reaction, )what is going on, and specifically whether he has got lenders consent and whether he is paying the mortgage. He may say it is none of your business, but you might get a better idea of what is happening. If he tells you anything, confirm it in writing afterwards.
You want to avoid the situation of bailiffs turning up on your doorstep, even if they can't get you out straightaway.
Speak to the LL and to Shelter to find out how your occupation can be protected if the lender re-possesses. It;'s been a long time since I've had any involvement in this legal field, but I think they will be able to get you out, although not on notice at all.

LastTrainEast · 04/07/2020 15:50

I am NOT an expert, but it sounds like he's been doing this for a while with the previous tenant and has been 'getting away with it', but he was good to them right? This wasn't about cheating the tenant, but only about getting the best deal with the mortgage.

I'd still be concerned and I'd want to be sure I had records of rent paid etc and I'd definitely want to speak to Shelter as DelphiniumBlue said to find out your exact legal position.

I would not be in a rush to return letters letting anyone else know he was doing it. Not until you're secured your own position.

Slippy78 · 04/07/2020 15:56

Please do not listen to legal advice from unqualified people.

I think I would open his post and check what they are saying (despite the fact that this would be illegal).

Contradicting yourself much there?
Opening the post is not illegal.

goingoverground · 04/07/2020 15:59

If he is in arrears and they obtain a possession order against him, you may find yourself in a very difficult situation

Obviously the OP needs to take legal advice but she is in no more of a difficult situation than any tenant. There is always a risk that a landlord might decide to sell a property, need to move in themselves or just decide to end the tenancy. Nobody is going to turn up and evict the OP immediately. There is always a risk that she might be given notice to leave the property, whether that is because the mortgage company is repossessing the house or the landlord wants to sell but she will be given notice and have time to find a new home.

Theo1756 · 04/07/2020 16:20

I converted a mortgage with mortgage direct to a BTL and only incurred a small admin fee, so it will be very little trouble for your landlord to swap it across. This suggests to me that it’s not just about the mortgage. More likely the landlord doesn’t want to declare the taxable income from your rent. As others suggest, get some proper advice on your rights. I would think, without a proper rental agreement your rights will be affected considerably. Do you have a deposit? Is it with a registered deposit service? Are the electrics and gas inspected and safe? I think you should consider moving to somewhere else so you have the protection that tenants should have.

Theo1756 · 04/07/2020 16:32

@Boredinthehouse

I wonder how the mortgage lender found out. Any ideas anyone?
Could be a number of reasons but typically credit checks by the tenant at the address or the landlord at their address would throw up a flag to mortgage providers.
dontdisturbmenow · 04/07/2020 16:37

Most lenders will agree to letting
Mmm, telling to not listen to others and then writing this!

Most will agree consent to let for a year or two on the basis that the person will come back to live in that property.

Most if not all lenders will not agree to consent to let for other 10 years. Most will expect the mortgage to be transferred to a BTL.

Moo31 · 04/07/2020 18:38

My partner has a mortgage with mortgage express on an apartment he bought over 10 years ago and has been renting out for a few years (since we bought our own home together). Every year he has to jump through hoops to get the consent to let renewed for another year. The tone of the letters he gets from them is shocking - I just checked this years and it says that the consent to let is expiring and he must confirm to them that he intends to move back into the property as soon as the consent expires and if he doesn't move back in he will be breaching x y and z. There is no mention of reapplying for consent (which I believe is intentional). He then has to phone them up where they are horrible to him because he wants to apply again and has to have an interview with a financial advisor before they will approve it and also has to pay £750 for the consent. It sounds like your landlord started this process but didn't finish it.

But I am mainly writing this to say that in our experience mortgage express are horrendous and the letter will sound worse than it actually is!

Jeeperscreepers69 · 04/07/2020 19:19

Who does that? No tenancy agreement? I would of demanded one. Expose him and hopefully local council might be able to rehome you

Happyher · 04/07/2020 19:27

A verbal agreement is still an agreement in law. I think you have a license so you will have some protection. Also he will have to serve notice if he wants you to leave And if you don’t he will need a court order to evict. His cheapest option is to sort things out with his mortgage provider. Get some advice!

impossible · 04/07/2020 19:59

It looks like he's requested to let the property and the bank are saying no. You need to make sure he gets the letters so he deals with it. He may sort out a buy to let mortgage with the bank or he may tell them he's not letting. (After 20 years if rent it's unlikely to he'll want to do without it.) Either way you are doing nothing wrong. It is his problem. Just make sure he keeps you informed.

impossible · 04/07/2020 20:04

Btw do not send mail back to bank. You will be telling them you are in there (in breach of mortgage) and will likely lose your tenancy. Let your landlord sort it out.

Caesious · 04/07/2020 20:29

I’d be trying to get a tenancy agreement ASAP. I used to work for an asset management company who deal with repossessed properties. If for some reason the landlord isn’t paying their mortgage and was to get repossessed, unless you have a tenancy agreement, it’s unlikely that the bank would allow you to remove any belongings from the property.
I saw many tenants lose all of their items because they couldn’t provide an inventory or tenancy agreement and couldn’t prove that the items were theirs, and therefore could not remove.

riceuten · 04/07/2020 21:01

There is an implied contract here.

www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/tenants-without-a-written-contract/#:~:text=A%20tenant%20without%20a%20written,reasonable%20care%20of%20the%20property.

The mortgage company will just want them on a more expensive buy to let mortgage. They will need to remortgage

Gbtch · 05/07/2020 06:59

I would open any mail that was posted to my house. ( unless it was mistakenly delivered, ie was addressed to a neighbour) . I wouldn’t apologise to my landlord for doing so. Up to him to notify his COA.

dontdisturbmenow · 05/07/2020 07:42

They will need to remortgage
They might not be able to, hence the problem. You normally need to own another property to do so and earn over a certain amount/have much equity in the property.

Original poster
Beccy82 · 05/07/2020 08:42

Thanks guys for all the advice. Obviously I don't know my LLs financial details but I do know he's self employed and owns his own building company. He also told me that him and his friend own about another 8 houses together than they rent out. But he did say this is the only house he owns himself.

OP posts:
Aesopfable · 05/07/2020 08:49

You are not in the house illegally - the landlord is in breach of his mortgage conditions. Ultimately that means the mortgage holder can call in the mortgage and sell the house to recover the debt. If this happens you will have to leave. I would start looking around for another property.

Aesopfable · 05/07/2020 08:52

Just to add. If his insurers don't know he is letting either then he won't be covered.

finglestick · 05/07/2020 10:25

Paying rent monthly implies that a tenancy agreement is in place so don’t worry about that. The ta only sets out the terms of the contract. If there isn’t one in place it’s not the end of the world.

Don’t open your landlords mail. Does he have an agent acting for him or is he managing the property himself? Do you have an address for him? Or an email address? Put any correspondence in writing, not texts, so you have a paper trail.

If the mortgage lender decides to sell, you will need to leave eventually but you should have notice of this. I would advise that you make a homelessness application with the council if you receive notice. At the moment tho, the last letter does not mention possession proceedings against your landlord so you’re fine for a while.

Don’t contact CAB for advice. They aren’t housing law experts! Shelter are the guys you need to speak to Smile

Floofsquidge · 05/07/2020 10:48

Apologies for bad formatting on mobile.

When I moved in with my partner I rented out my house privately to a friend. I had to obtain permission to let from my mortgage provider which was valid until the end of the current residential mortgage lock-in period, after which I had to switch to a buy to let mortgage. If I ever expected to return to the property I would be allowed to continue on the same residential mortgage until the end of the term, but wouldn't be able to remortgage to a another residential mortgage (do I would end up on the SVR if I didn't remortgage). Residential mortgage interest rates are cheaper than BTL.

To get the BTL mortgage I had to create an assured shorthold tenancy agreement, ensure the rent was a max % of the mortgage payment, present evidence of landlord insurance, annual gas safe / electrical safety certification, and I have to complete a tax return every year.
So your landlord is putting you at risk if they're not getting those safety checks done, he doesn't have appropriate insurance, and he's likely not declared the rental income for all those years.

Worse case scenario, his mortgage company could repossess the house due to breaking the terms of the mortgage so you could indirectly be evicted due to no fault of your own.

Stupid thing is that most mortgage companies do agree to permission to let and is incredibly simple to obtain (for my mortgage it was just a letter).

Nineteenseventy · 05/07/2020 14:25

Just to add. If his insurers don't know he is letting either then he won't be covered.

And even if he has landlord insurance, it's likely to be invalid if he's letting without the permission of his mortgage company.

JoeCalFuckingZaghe · 05/07/2020 14:52

@Nyclair

As a side note, its illegal to open someone's mail on purpose..yikes!
No it's not, provided it was not done with malice or ill intent, which it wasn't. How awkward for you... yikes!
ostinato · 05/07/2020 15:12

@goingoverground

If he is in arrears and they obtain a possession order against him, you may find yourself in a very difficult situation

Obviously the OP needs to take legal advice but she is in no more of a difficult situation than any tenant. There is always a risk that a landlord might decide to sell a property, need to move in themselves or just decide to end the tenancy. Nobody is going to turn up and evict the OP immediately. There is always a risk that she might be given notice to leave the property, whether that is because the mortgage company is repossessing the house or the landlord wants to sell but she will be given notice and have time to find a new home.

Unfortunately where a property is repossessed by the lender the notice can be minimal. In our case it was 1 week.

OP should seek advice from someone qualified, but honestly, she should just tell the LL her DD opened the letter by mistake and she saw the contents. Not having a tenancy agreement or bond means she can leave whenever she likes (other than if the lender secures a possession order)