NOT TEACHER BASHING but do why do teachers have to do hours of planning every day?

[mostwonderfultime]

If the syllabus is the same every year which it is, do you not just use planning from previous years?
I'm sure I'm being naive but just read this on another thread.

"So in thatscenario.20hours of teaching would be 40 hours of work."

So just a bit over an average 37 hour week. Some people have said they leave at 4 to do school pick up, then work later. So not doing more really than most people?

Tabbymumz - I taught year 6 for years. Three pieces of written work a day was the minimum I would receive from most children. Although of course some children simply can't write and therefore do something slightly different. Or some children might be off to their young carers meeting/sensory session/ speech and language etc. So some children always have less work.

Have you asked your school about their curriculum policies? Perhaps they record it digitally? Perhaps your school doesn't do that much. To base your argument on your experience of one school is foolish at best, deliberately provocative at worst.

TabbyMumz, that was in reference to university, slightly different to primary.

If they vote to strike you should all strike
unbelievably, i have been a member of a union and would never have voted to strike if I disagreed with it.
I take it you don't have much confidence in your own opinions?

@hashtagbollocks

"Some posters consistently snidey and critical of teachers haven't shown themselves in a good light either" we're not the ones always saying "we're on our knees!" Most of us are just getting on with stuff and not thinking we're a special case as the only profession who works hard or long hours

And perhaps teachers wouldn't feel so defensive without posters falsely and consistently claiming teachers are saying these things en masse.

Tabby I'd give up. We've already had a genuine "I'm on my knees"
It's only going to go downhill from there.

Unfortunately, from everything she has said, the school TabbyMumz' children attend isn't a very good one so it's probably only to be expected that the children don't produce much by way of work. Sad.

mostwonderfultime

Just to add what other teachers have put in.

Informing and instructing TAs what is happening in the lesson and what the pupil they are with needs to learn.

So not just planning for pupils but other members of staff including what to do if they are not there.

There is also room set up, (practicals) sorting equipment repair or replacement.

We get to see ALL those books. That's my point. There isnt enough work for primary teachers to be doing hours and hours of marking every night. As I've said some pieces of work will be 5 lines of work, where a child had to pick the right word so 5 ticks and a "well done" required. That would take literally half a minute to mark. Plus in class, as some children are quicker than others to finish, the teacher will be able to quickly mark their work even before the class is finished

You're half right. I try to mark the table I'm working with during the lesson as direct feedback with the child is far more beneficial than written feedback generally.

However, I also need to check the learning of every other child in my class before the next lesson so yes, I need to mark every day in order to tweak the next lesson / pick up on any misconceptions / identify gaps in learning.

That's every day for Maths & English minimum.

For longer written pieces, most of my Y2s are capable of producing at least half an A4 page minimum. Y3 upwards will obviously be producing more. Some Y6s will easily produce 2/3 pages of writing in a lesson.

So yeah Ok, some books will take 30 seconds for a quick flick n tick.

But then writing takes far longer - more like 3/4 hours in depth marking for a whole class-worth of finished pieces.

Oh, and don't get me started on the fact that Y2 and Y6 are moderated externally in writing so these teachers will have to collect evidence many times over against a huge tick list of statements which is purely to back up their teacher judgements.

Haven't even mentioned Art, History, Geog, DT, Science, etc.

Tabby, you seem determined to 'prove' that teachers are all despicable liars. Why? You've had more than enough of us telling you the reality.
Why are you still trying to catch us out? There really aren't any ulterior motives in us telling you the truth!!

@TabbyMumz

"And seriously, trotting out what time they leave? You know that many do their planning and assessment at home, surely?"

Not when they half a day planning factored into their working week, no. Or did you think most parents done know this?

My half day was two hours (an afternoon, minus the time it took to get my class in after lunch and settled so that the person covering could take over, then back in time to check everything was okay before the kids went home). And that hardly made a dent.

@spanieleyes

In Primary you have at least 60 and often 90 books a night to mark! Unlike secondary, the majority of primary schools expect work to be marked and feedback required daily.

Don’t buy into the narrative that we are in opposition. All teachers teach the same number of lessons, so have the same number of books to mark.

You are all assuming I only have experience of one school and some of you are so nasty, I've obviously hit a nerve. You've realised that parents see all their childs work and that doesnt tally up with your "hours and hours" worth of marking a night. I've had years and years worth of experience with primary schools and I know exactly what work is expected and it isnt hours and hours every night for primary. It takes minutes to mark spelling books, literally minutes. Do you think we dont know that? Really?

@hashtagbollocks

If they vote to strike you should all strike unbelievably, i have been a member of a union and would never have voted to strike if I disagreed with it. I take it you don't have much confidence in your own opinions?

So then you resign your union membership as they clearly don’t represent your views and you don’t get to have the benefits of their collective bargaining or the legal protection - your choice.

Absolutely not! I wouldn't want the marking in secondary school either.

@changeofheart1234567

I know the kids in our school have had the same topics, rolled out the same way, for the seven years we’ve had kids (or kids I look after) at the school. Identical materials used year on year on year.

You don’t think that the materials sent for homework might be the same, but the resources and lessons in school might be very different to get to the point where that homework can be set? Given that homework has very little value, according to all the studies.

I have been teaching since 1987 and the time I spend on planning and prep hasn't reduced at all. In fact I think I spend more time. I am also a teacher trainer and am really keen helping teachers to be as efficient as possible so they don't burn out. Even so, for every hour teaching I need 1 or 2 hours for planning, preparation and marking during most of the year and at some points like the end of term much more than that.

Why? Well the curriculum changes every single year and of course every year my students are different. They have different needs and I have to plan for those needs, create new materials and think of new strategies to support them.

Actors do not just walk onto a stage and start talking. It's the same for teachers but even more so. Teachers don't perform the same play over and over. I have never once in 32 years of teaching repeated the same lesson.

If your only experience of teaching is being in the 'audience' as a student then you have no idea of what happened 'backstage' in the classroom. On top of that, if you went to school more than 15 years ago you will have no idea of 'differentiation'. Without special schools, grammar schools, streaming, setting etc. Teachers are required to cater for every single student and make sure every one of them meets multiple targets. In this day and age it is considered to be absolutely the fault of the teacher if this does not happen. What's more this is not something that happens spontaneously in the classroom. Every bit of it has to be recorded and evidenced.

No really TabbyMumz, you have obviously been really unlucky with your school choices if they have all been so bad. Better luck next time.

@TabbyMumz

Parents get to see these books that have been marked, on parents evening. With 30 kids in a class and only a few bits of written work a day, I doubt most teachers are marking 90 books every night. The work just isnt there. Unless once its marked, its thrown away?

Well, there are 5 or 6 lessons a day (depending on length) so with a class of 30 having 90 a day to mark seems reasonable. 90 out of a potential 150 or 180?

cardibach

All teachers teach the same number of lessons, so have the same number of books to mark.

In theory you are correct but as a practical subject, I mark less much less in KS3 (practical lessons instant feedback for those ready to jump on my post) than they would in English or Maths (I also teach math so interesting marking load).

Yet in KS4 my marking load ramps up. Not only due to NEA but also due to making sure that the theory knowledge is deep enough. etc. etc.

It saddens me that teachers here feel that posters are constantly challenging what they (as opposed to what other professions) do but surely the reason is that as a forum for mothers, one of the few things the vast majority of us have in common is that our children go to school. Our children, and by extension we, have direct and frequent contact with teachers in a way that is quite unlike any other relationship they or we have with other professionals like lawyers, accountants or even doctors.

I know that when the new GCSE and A level specs came in, they created a huge amount of work for teachers. Similarly the National Curriculum, when it came into force in 2013. But I'd have thought that by now things would have settled down a bit. Of course teachers will want to change what they teach from time to time, and of course they will want to review their practice and of course they will need to ensure that what they are teaching if differentiated, but it's not like the whole syllabus is constantly changing. Or if it is, surely that's a choice, not necessarily by the individual teacher, of course, but by the school?

"Tabby, you seem determined to 'prove' that teachers are all despicable liars. Why? You've had more than enough of us telling you the reality.
Why are you still trying to catch us out? There really aren't any ulterior motives in us telling you the truth!!"

Not trying to catch anybody out, just wish some would be a bit more truthful instead of putting out the hours and hours worth of work a night and working till midnight rubbish. More settled experienced teachers will admit that's not the case.

@hashtagbollocks

and I wouldn’t ignore Union instruction to strike even if you disagreed with what they were proposing striking over?

No. That’s what ‘Union‘ means. I support the other members, they support me. Though I reality there are only a very few reasons we are allowed to strike, so that wouldn’t arise.

@TabbyMumz

"16:30changeofheart1234567

I know the kids in our school have had the same topics, rolled out the same way, for the seven years we’ve had kids (or kids I look after) at the school. Identical materials used year on year on year."

Yessssss. Very very true. The same work sent home all the time. Same topics each year and school play gets rehashed every 3 or 4 years.

Then that school needs to be looked at carefully as curriculum development has been a huge thing the last few years, plus a brand new curriculum a couple of years that meant things that had been taught in one year suddenly had to be taught two years earlier, and topics that may have been in one key stage moved into another. Plus topics may be similar but are the skills and learning objectives identical? Are the teaching methods?

Please note, I refer to that specific school. Not schools in general.

With regards to resources, the resources may have been similar or the same even, but not necessarily how they were introduced or used. That's like saying someone used the same pack of cards every time they got them out, not realising the myriad of games you can play.

I think the op may have been confusing "curriculum" with syllabus.

8:30am arrival - none of your business how much earlier than the children the staff arrive as long as they are there and organised before the children. If you are concerned, I am sure the head would be able to explain why s/he allows this. But maybe those teachers are bound by wrap around care for their own children and physically can't be there earlier. Doesn't mean they're slacking, means they're making up time in their lunch breaks or evenings in order to be ready to go straight away in the morning. I had one term where I had to work like that and it was awful.

And not only secondary teachers are commenting.

PPA 10% of teaching time to be taken in one chunk. If a PPA session is on Tuesday pm, how can a teacher properly plan for where the children will be on Monday? Plans have to be made in response to progress - that's the whole reason we assess, to see what we need to reinforce/go over again/extend. We can put a skeleton in place but it's not going to be a case of "there's my planning done for the week." It could quite easily have to be thrown out and completely redone.

It takes a minimum of 30mins to plan and resource each lesson. Often more. We have at least 20 lessons a week, plus phonics, plus guided reading. Plus assemblies to plan. And material to present at staff meetings. As PP said, PPA doesn't even begin to touch the sides.

On the whole, teachers work hard. If they don't, it makes their lives infinitely more difficult. Some may do more than others, others less. But teaching as a profession tends to draw perfectionists into it. We are trained to be constantly reflecting on practice, trying to be more effective. It's part of the job.

We don't work harder than other professions and we get reasonable pay for our work, given the holidays and flexibility to leave earlier than many jobs if we need to. It's not great pay but overall probably works out fair.

Tabby are you one of those people that think GPs just sit around googling symptoms? Police just sst in cars eating donuts? Judges just sat dosing in a funny wig?

I was a teacher. It's not just marking and planning that make up the workload. It is inputting data into the school's assessment tool, analysing the results so you can present at progress meetings, SEND support plan reviews and then meetings with parents, meetings with professionals such as speech therapists or specialists, network meetings with local schools, CPD meetings, staff meetings, planning and book scrutinies for subject leadership, attending governors meetings to present scrutiny results, putting up displays, looking after classroom resources, mentoring work, reviewing long term curriculum with whatever the latest guidelines from the DFE are, training courses, behaviour meetings with parents, responding to emails, returning phone calls, organising trips, and visits, risk assessments, running after school clubs etc. All of these things are the responsibility of a standard teacher (primary and secondary) and they happen outside of teaching hours. Then there are parents evenings, reports, events etc. The preparation and planning time is not enough. That is why teachers work long hours and work through their holidays.