How exactly do you know your child is top of their class

[shadesofsun]

As per the title, I am curious as to how so many parents claims their child is top of the class, so who tells you that?

Are teachers really telling parents this or giving a hierarchy of where the children sit?

Because teachers either tell you whereabouts they are or you can easily decipher the seating arrangements.
My eldest is not top but is in the higher group for English although her spelling is dreadful but is about average for maths. Middle one is bright and doing work a year ahead for everything. Third is only two but is currently a bit behind peers in speech etc but is obviously perfectly fine and will get there in her own time

I would never describe my son as being top of the class. After 10 years of parents' evenings for both my kids, I've only just managed to accept a compliment on their behalf without feeling the need to look surprised and say something negative about their performance in that subject. I find it quite embarrassing and am worried about looking immodest. It drives my husband nuts as he feels I'm putting my kids down to the teachers. Mind you, he's been banned (by me) from parents' evening since making a very inappropriate joke to our deputy head.

That said, at my youngest son's primary school, it's fairly easy to work out their position in the class as the school include their end of year exam marks by subject, together with the set and class average. The kids work out between themselves (despite being told not to) who got the highest mark.

You don't, really. Although the kids will know!

They'll be falling over themselves to tell you they "moved up a table" or that they are now sat "on the clever table". Kids aren't daft. And they're honest.

Mine’s primary and I’ve never been told where she ranks in class although she was the first to be able to choose her own reading book - quite some time before her classmates. Her reading/spelling/creative writing ability is advanced and in one of the English SATs she did she got 100%. However her handwriting is appalling! And maths is a bit of a mystery to her, although she enjoys it.

In primary school I think you have a good idea by the group they're in, the work they're set, etc. I wouldn't know which individual child is top of DD's class, but there are 3 of them who are in a phonics group together and go into a higher class to choose their books. And I can look at the level on the book and see that it's for a higher year group than they're in. Similarly for maths, the teacher has directed us to resources to stretch her.

(Note: I've never claimed that she's "top of the class", though!)

@XingMing

Society needs brain surgeons AND bottle washers. One cannot do their job without the other. Of course, there is a hierarchy; it would be invidious to deny it, you should all be glad I am not a surgeon because I'm quite clumsy. But everyone deserves respect for the role they have, as long as they do their job with commitment.

This rubbish is only spouted by people who have never been bottle washers. If they had, they would know that these jobs are mainly filled by teenagers or immigrants with big ambition that know they need cash to get started and are happy to work hard doing something menial to achieve that.

No one should be looking at mixed group of children and assuming that if some of them are really struggling that is fine, because they can be bottle washers for the rest of their life. It's just an excuse to not bother invest in the future of those kids.

The other thing to be aware of is that being top in one school doesn’t mean your child would be top in another.

Dd went to a catchment school where we were the poorest part of catchment. Her best friend was on the other side of town in a much more mixed and multicultural cohort. We are good family friends and whenever schooling came up, this other family made it clear (not nastily) that their dd was cleverer than ours as she was in all top groups, got to go on G&T trips etc. As it happened, I taught on their side of town in a school very similar. I knew that if I put my dd in their school, she’d be in the same groups but all they ever heard was that my dd wasn’t in top set for anything.

Well, SATS rolled around and our DDs got practically identical scores. Mine was top in reading/spag, theirs top in Maths. They got top results in their cohort. Mine was about 10th in hers (and she got 119/120 in reading to give an example.)

When they hit secondary school (together) my DD has absolutely flourished. She’s top set all round but more than that she has a reputation of someone who tries her best and works hard. She’s always had to work to be near the top and she’s raised her game accordingly. In contrast, her bestie really struggled in realising that she really wasn’t the cleverest person in the room.

I’ve never been interested in finding out where my child is in relation to her class. I just want to know that she is achieving what she is capable of and working hard. It’s a much better indicator of how well they’ll do in life in my opinion.

@Cartesiandebt

Because the teachers have told me every year at parents evening

I recommend comparing notes with other parents, you may be surprised

Yep. Totally agree . Parents often come away from our School’s parents evenings feeling that their kids are the brightest and top of the class.

When DD was at school...many years ago now...her end of year reports always had a column titled "Position in class". The subject teacher would then put where DD was i.e 10/30.

@Quarantimespringclean sorry, I meant the class TA, I know one to one TA's are different. In my dc's primary school there is always at least 1 class TA who is not assigned to a specific child but is funded by several children's SN or PP funding. She/he always sits on the bottom table and helps whoever needs it. 2 of my dc get some SN funding but not enough for a 1 to 1 TA of their own so they sit on the bottom table and share the TA with a few other children.

I don’t think you can safely say that a child is ‘top’ of their class as it can mean so many different things. It might be that a child is too academically for a short period but it’s very fluid. My dad was a high flyer in primary school, average at school and then came into her own in gcse year.
I didn’t see her as ‘top’ because she wasn’t the best socially, or practically or at PE.

I had a teacher I get on with tell me as aside in the playground once about some testing they had done. He’s not even DDs teacher anymore. DD is shy and struggles with school and he said he thought I should know and make a fuss of her.

There’s a parent in her year who tells everyone her DD is the top at absolutely everything. A few years ago they’d had a end of year test that was out of 20 marks. She ran round the playground asking what everyone else what their children had gotten as her DD got 20 out of 20.
Her DD was running round also comparing scores. She’d got 16. (DD got 20, I refused to tell her).
She also told me her DD was much taller than hers whilst the girls were stood next to each other, my daughter was about 3 inches taller. She’s bizarre.

I knew Dd was in the bottom set as she told me.

She seemed quite proud that she was in the bottom set as if she was able to write her name the teacher gave her a Smartie or chocolate button whilst all the ones in the top set looked on and were jealous.

It also meant she wasn’t given any particularly hard home work

Ds was in the bottom set because he just wasn’t good at reading and writing and was actually struggling.

UnicornPug makes a good point; top of which class?
For the last part of my teaching career, I taught in a selective school, and it was interesting to see the reaction of the boys when they realised the competition was stiffer than it had been in their previous school. Some relished the brisker pace, others who had become accustomed to floating effortlessly to prime position found it a bit of a shock. I remember one lad in floods of tears at the realisation that he was now "Mr Average who passed the entrance test just like everybody else here" wailing "But (previous school) offered me a scholarship to stay"; unsurprisingly, he was a bright enough lad, and a pleasant personality, but lack of competition had made him complacent. Luckily, he quickly adjusted, upped his game, and flourished. It reminded me of my transition to grammar school; I was in with a group who had all passed their 11+, by definition, and it didn't bother me, but some girls found the adjustment more of a stretch.
Another Mummy's refrain was "I want him to be top!" (she didn't nag him about it, I think she expected me to teach him that little bit harder) and although he was comfortably placed to progress through to the Senior School, a scholarship wasn't in the offing.
SATs results will give you some kind of perspective, being set to external standards, but there are so many things which SATs can't measure.

She lied.

Why must everyone always shit on parents and say the teachers have lied when they say something nice about their kid? Why would this teacher need to say anything at all. The mum didn’t ask lies he the only one to have worked out the “code” the teacher volunteered that information. Seems a strange thing to lie about.

Teachers might be economical with the truth and soften the blow if a child is performing very poorly or is badly behaved, but if a child is doing very well, they will say so without having to lie. DD’s teacher uses words like excellent, exceptional, outstanding. We know she isn’t lying because we have eyes and can tell where she is in comparison to her peer group generally.

They know. They don’t care
Some might not but who is in the top group and who is going to move in to it is a hot topic of conversation with DD’s group of friends.

I work as a TA.

I have never heard a single teacher in my school refer to a child as being "top of the class". And even if forced to do so, I really couldn't accurately name a child in my class who I would designate as being "top".

Even the replies on this thread show just how subjective it all is. Some have said that they knew because their child had a particular reading age or had moved up to another year group. Yet on the same thread we can see that other children have higher reading ages when in that same school year or have moved up even further in the year groups.

And as has been pointed out already, a child in the TA's group is not necessarily in the lowest group. I've had children sitting with me because they need help to focus or need a scribe for that particular piece of work. Some of those children have actually been doing work at a much higher level than most of the class.

I've worked with a child whose SN has meant that their results can vary massively depending on their mood when they first arrived at school that morning, or whether their medical needs have affected them more severely that day, or whether someone has annoyed them at lunchtime. There have been tests where they've barely written more than their name and the date and scored zero, and others where they've whizzed through the whole thing in half the allocated time and got 100% correct. Are they bottom of the class because they get zeros, or top because they get 100% with plenty of time to spare?

Maybe it is easier to judge who is top in secondary but it's very difficult in primary.

That’s interesting
As a primary teacher I could have told you with ease who was top of any class I taught.
Children aren’t stupid they know who finds the work easiest/hardest, if they got extra work, moved up a book band etc

You must have a very different cohort to ours!

We don't even have a child who is on the HA table for all areas.

Wow yes we must then!

@shadesofsun

It was a joke. Very mumsnet when muns are writing about their clever kids that they read Harry Potter. Personally I'd be more impressed if they said Dickens or Shakespeare!

As I said dd1 top marks all through school.and uni but she never read, none if mibe did despite the house being full if books. I was so disappointed, I learned to read relatively late ( y1ish) but love reading and as a child would read whatever was on the shelf I was only top of the class for A level though, when I was doing the subjects I loved.

I'm shocked at the posts that say they know because their child's teacher told them. I would never say where a child is in relation to other children in the class, only in relation to the national curriculum.

How can you even measure who would be top of the class? Spelling and mental maths tests do not measure intelligence but memory. Those who are great at English and maths might not be great at PSHE, art and music. Even if you found a way to measure who would be 'top', it's still irrelevant because each cohort is so different that if a 'top' moved to a different class, they might be a 'middle' in the new class.

In my classroom the tables are mixed ability and although I do differentiate work, the children choose which task they would like to complete. Encouraging resilience and a growth mindset means they usually choose the task most appropriate to them.

Despite my efforts, there are parents who think their child is top. I remember one year, three or four children telling me how happy they were the day after parents evening because I aparently told their parent they were the smartest in the class. I can guarantee I never said that!

Is it the kids who are “top of the class” who turn out to be the best human beings? My daughter was rarely top of the class but she’s great with people, hard working and loves working, I know she’ll always look after herself. If you find out your child isn’t “top of the class” look at other qualities, they may help them get through this life more than being the top by some abstract system.

At DD’s primary there were 15 in class. I could tell top 3 or 4 children from reception. I did pick up daily so what I saw and what DD said. Also I always went to weekly assembly where children spoke and awards given, work read out or held up. In reception they were in 2 groups and it was obvious which was which. One group could read other group did extra phonics with nursery. As they got bit older 4 children inc DD were in one group. Again obvious top group. They would do different or extra work, free reading while others still on reading scheme, would be narrators or do long readings in assembly whilst others had one line etc. Children know how peers have done in tests. Children also know who is going out for support - Mrs TA’s group did x we did y. Those 4 children went on to pass 11 plus. Children also shared their SAT results. Who was top varied test to test and subject to subject but top 3 or 4 yes I could tell from reception. Teacher would say if dc has got best mark in exam at parents evening.

Children know too.

Apart from getting moved to a pen first for cursive writing I am very confident my child is well in front compared to his peers.

Teachers (post 1986) never tell parents this. They never report to parents by comparing to other children.