to be angry they are showing Jonty Braverys photo?

[calpolatdawn]

He clearly wanted the notoriety, his face should never have been shown, its was extremely pre meditated. Also identifying him as Autistic first dangerously mentally ill second 🙄 apparently experts have diagnosed his callousness points more to psychopathy than autism, no shit sherlock

@Ohnonononononono dont worry, it would make exactly no difference if you told his mental health team what he'd been saying. Just like it will have made no difference when he told them. There are cases of people begging for help in a&e departments because they are terrified of what they might do, then being discharged and killing someone within hours. The system is broken.

So many of which people @dottiedodah

YANBU, what a wicked bastard he is.

I’ve just read the judge’s sentencing remarks and it says more than once that his offending is not explained by his autism.

Can we hold people responsible for what their mental illness makes them do?

Sometimes you can, yes. It’s nowhere near as straightforward as mentally ill = not legally responsible. It’s extremely nuanced.

Again, he does not have a mental illness. He is not mentally ill.

@malmi

I didn't know his name until it was promoted on here. Whatever argument you have against his photo being shown on the news, it also applies to creating this thread and the resultant discussion.

My point is, even if it's "what he wants", doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't happen anyway.

Well, it’s on the front page of most online news outlets, so hardly! Just because you get your news from mumsnet doesn’t mean everyone else was unexposed to the case.

Yep he has a personality disorder and potentially psychopathic.

There will have been huge amounts of examination and scrutiny of his mental health following the incident. And even if he was mentally ill, it does not necessarily follow that he would not have been responsible for his actions. The threshold for mental illness to negate legal responsibility in law is actually extremely high.

He’s an extremely dangerous individual and it would more than likely be in the public interest that he’s never released. Harsh, but the rights of the public to be safe from this kind of behaviour is more important than his rights as an individual.

Porcupine inwaiting People like Jonty Bravery .Who may or may not be responsible for their actions .Why are they not accompinaed by a Carer or their medication checked by someone .By all accounts he was living alone ,and had on previous occasions assaulted one of his carers ! Again he slipped through yet another hole in the net it would seem! He was under the care of Fulham and Hammersmith Council at the time !

@FizzFan Well said.

That’s certainly something that needs to be looked into @dottiedodah as to what kind of risk assessment was done that deemed him safe to go out alone.

agree that the psychopathy is the main thing not the autism.

Definitely, just like if I got hit by a bus it wouldnt say I died of my underlying health conditions first and then second, hit by a bus. They are completely irrelevant just as his autism is completely irrelevant to his psychopathic personality disorder (or whatever he has)

This and all the planning and researching he was going, including looking up

Do we know that him having autism didn't play a part in what he did? That is not to say that all autistic people would throw someone off a building but maybe it did have a part to play in what he did?

My son was abused by an autistic 18yr old, we were told that this 18yr old abused my son and others because of his autism. We were told this by social workers, by counsellors and by the team who were tasked with 'rehabilitating' this 18yr old. I don't think all autistic people are paedophiles but I no longer subscribe to the view that a neurological difference or whatever you want to call it cannot lead to someone doing something awful and unforgivable.

I think we can trust the large number of clinicians who will have examined him to have considered that, @aloe. The sentencing remarks clearly state that his offending was not explained by his autism.

You are right OP. It’s well known that giving these kind of crimes too much publicity encourages copycat crimes.

Again, he does not have a mental illness. He is not mentally ill

To what extent does that matter? A personality disorder is a mental health disorder, you can be detained under the MHA with a diagnosis of PD and no mental illness if you meet the other criteria, the 2007 Act makes it very clear that personality disorders are clinically recognised mental disorders.

Why are so many of these people allowed to walk the streets

What "people" exactly do you think need your permission to walk the streets?
Is it us autistics you're complaining about? Because there's plenty of us about and you wouldn't even know we were there. Same with mentally ill people. And unfortunately it's the same with psychopaths. They can't be locked up unless they actually commit a crime you know. I could ask why so many unthinking idiots are allowed to "walk the streets."

@Iwalkinmyclothing Because posters keep talking about him being mentally ILL and he isnt. He meets diagnostic threshold for psychopathy, a mental disorder. A mental illness goes on top of someone's personality. His psychopathy is part of his personality. It matters hugely when considering culpability.

JanMeyer I take your point ,and for your information my DD is on the Spectrum as well as it happens .No one is saying they should be "locked up" but this man was assaulting his carers ,and not taking his medication FFS! Hammersmith and Fulham Council seem to be remiss here. If someone is violent then surely they should not be let out alone ?

Do we know that him having autism didn't play a part in what he did? That is not to say that all autistic people would throw someone off a building but maybe it did have a part to play in what he did? My son was abused by an autistic 18yr old, we were told that this 18yr old abused my son and others because of his autism. We were told this by social workers, by counsellors and by the team who were tasked with 'rehabilitating' this 18yr old. I don't think all autistic people are paedophiles but I no longer subscribe to the view that a neurological difference or whatever you want to call it cannot lead to someone doing something awful and unforgivable.

Please explain to me how you think autism could play any part in throwing someone off a roof?
Because i have autism, and i can't see how that could be so. Autism doesn't cause you to hear voices, suffer delusions, it doesn't make you a bad, evil or vengeful person.
And no, a neurological condition such as autism cannot "lead to someone doing something awful and unforgivable."
Sometimes autistic people (just like nt people) do terrible things, it's not because they have autism. And it's offensive to suggest that's the case.

The more I read of the things he said the more I think he is just an evil pos the same as Ian Brady, Ted Bundy etc. He knew exactly what he was doing and even said to ‘blame social services. ‘ That doesn’t remove the fact that his carers were incompetent though.

I don’t think that of all murderers where mental health is a factor. There was an awful incident near me where a schizophrenic lady who had killed her mother as a teenager took herself into a local hospital and said please keep me here I am hearing voices and fighting the urge to kill. She was just left to her own devices in the waiting room and went out and killed a lady in the street. In that case I had a lot of sympathy for her as well as her victim.

Totally agree that his autism should not be emphasised at all particularly given the fact the judge said it was not to blame.

The sentencing remarks clearly state that his offending was not explained by his autism.

Which is why his autism should not be mentioned in headlines about his sentencing, especially as a main descriptor. It’s as relevant as saying “Brown-haired teenager sentenced”. But let’s go ahead and further stigmatise an already misunderstood condition shall we?

@JanMeyer

Do we know that him having autism didn't play a part in what he did? That is not to say that all autistic people would throw someone off a building but maybe it did have a part to play in what he did? My son was abused by an autistic 18yr old, we were told that this 18yr old abused my son and others because of his autism. We were told this by social workers, by counsellors and by the team who were tasked with 'rehabilitating' this 18yr old. I don't think all autistic people are paedophiles but I no longer subscribe to the view that a neurological difference or whatever you want to call it cannot lead to someone doing something awful and unforgivable.

Please explain to me how you think autism could play any part in throwing someone off a roof?
Because i have autism, and i can't see how that could be so. Autism doesn't cause you to hear voices, suffer delusions, it doesn't make you a bad, evil or vengeful person.
And no, a neurological condition such as autism cannot "lead to someone doing something awful and unforgivable."
Sometimes autistic people (just like nt people) do terrible things, it's not because they have autism. And it's offensive to suggest that's the case.

Tell that to the professionals who told us that the person who abused my ds(which is awful and unforgivable) did so because of his autism.

@Smiley that persons diagnosis was later changed from schizophrenia to borderline personality disorder. It was determined that she never actually had schizophrenia - a misdiagnosis.

^^ Not aimed at anyone on this thread btw. Just a general rant.

I take your point ,and for your information my DD is on the Spectrum as well as it happens .No one is saying they should be "locked up" but this man was assaulting his carers ,and not taking his medication FFS! Hammersmith and Fulham Council seem to be remiss here. If someone is violent then surely they should not be let out alone ?

You asked why so many of "these people" were allowed to walk the streets. So you mean violent people? Unfortunately there's plenty of those around, and most don't have a condition or illness to excuse their behaviour. Care in the community, this is the reality of it. People who need support don't get it (i sometimes feel aggrieved when i read about people like this guy getting support and people like me get none, it's just like school in a way, you want support then being violent is the way to get it, struggle on quietly and get nothing) and people who should be living in a supported environment are out in the community.