To return my rescue dog?

[Brunomarsbars]

Firstly let me say I don't ta ke this lightly. I never thought I'd be considering returning a dog.

I adopted a young dog at the weekend from a national dog charity. Specifically said on my application that I needed a dog-friendly dog. The dog I was matched with was described as "indifferent" to dogs which sounded fine. Didn't need him to be best friends with every dog he meets, but just not aggressive. He's the loveliest, most adorable dog with humans but I noticed from the word go he was grumpy with dogs. He'd strain at the leash and bark, even when the dogs were some distance away.

Then, he attacked a dog on a walk. He was on his leash but a dog came running up behind him and took him by surprise - he whipped round and bit it, and wouldn't let go. Fortunately the other dog didn't fight back and didn't appear to be too hurt, but mine was desperately fighting to get out of his harness to chase the dog down. It was really shocking.

I finally got a chat with the dog charity behaviourist today who advised it was worrying and concerning as the dog had given no warning signs, just launched straight into a bite. She advised not introducing the dog to my partner's dog yet (fair enough) and that they can do a 'consultation' with him but she can't make any guarantees that he'll improve or ever be ready to be introduced to the other dog.

I could muzzle him out and about, but wouldn't solve the issue of when my boyfriend's dog comes to visit (once a month as we are in a LDR).

I'm gutted as he's just adorable with people but as a first-time dog owner, I feel out of my depth. The charity is 1.5 hours drive away so not like I can pop there regularly.

AIBU to give him back on the basis of the fight/general dog grumpiness?

The dog we have now was from a national dog charity. We are, his third home.
First home had him 3 years. He was given to the dog charity in a pretty poor condition.
Second home had him 5 days but he showed aggression to the other dog who lived there.
Third home us. We’ve had him 5 years and he’s a permanent resident. We had to sign a form saying he would be the only dog in the house (which he is).
What I’m trying to say is that if you return him the charity should be more careful about who they rehome him with.
Don’t beat yourself up about this. We are experienced dog owners and have worked with our dog. He’s now a pleasure with/around other dogs.

I wouldn't take him back. I would seek a good dog trainer/behaviour specialist. I would work on him for at least 6 months before resorting to returning him. If you return him now, you're effectively signing his death warrant. Noone is going to want a dog that bites other dogs.

It sounds like he was taken by surprise and scared. Dogs are much more likely to lash out when they’re on the lead in that sort of situation. I’m not suggesting you let him off, but I had a dog like this. He was lovely with humans but scared of some other dogs. I just made sure to keep an eye out for other dogs off the lead. He was absolutely fine with dogs that he knew and that he met in an environment where he could see them coming and they all had space to get out of the way if necessary.

I would take him for a walk with your partner’s dog, muzzle him initially, let them run together in an open space and see how they get along. If he’s aggressive sadly you will have to return him, but it would be a shame if this reaction was a one off due to him being startled.

no one is going to want a dog that bites other dogs
Exactly and neither does the op.

I know it sounds harsh but I'd return it as it wasn't placed with you in good faith by the dog rescue.
You specify a dog friendly dog and they match you with one that isn't.
Life is too short to be stressed by walking a dog that wasn't what you wanted and potentially dangerous to you and other animals.

@Valambtine Ditto. I got a small ish pedigree terrier puppy from two lovely men who were rec by the KC and saw mum and other pups happy in their pen, then out the next time. There was a cat and chickens and a very relaxed boy dog.

She will growl at some children and not a great fan of puppies but is 100% safe. Has never bitten and after 13 years never will. She's had a few near misses (been attacked but not hurt as dogs were on a lead &/or muzzled) and is somewhat wary of staffies as a result.

I could never live with myself if my dog attacked and seriously injured or killed another dog. I met some lovely people with a miniature dachshund puppy - really sweet young couple. Next time I saw them the dog looked smaller. I asked what had happened and the puppy had been killed in front of their eyes by another dog. They were devastated.

That other dog he had then almost killed a small dog less than a couple of weeks later. The owner did what he had to but was angry about having to, with no compassion for the other dogs or owners. I might add they were not rescued as far as I know. They were blue staffie sisters (2) so likely he bought them.

I don't understand how anyone can keep a dangerous dog just not caring about anyone else. They always blame the other dog/owner and if you give it back to the rescue it simply gets passed to other unsuspecting owners. Who then say 'well he's never done that before!'

The poster is getting a hard time. She has genuine questions and is looking for our help.

There needs to be a real discussion about the mantra of "puppy = bad, rescue = good" in this country. The truth is far more nuanced. When I was looking for a dog, many dog profiles specified unfeasible requirements: remote home, no visitors, no cats/dogs/furries, single adult owner etc. I do question if a dog that needs these requirements should be available for rescue at all. What happens when that single person moves/finds love/has grandchildren/neighbour gets a dog? Are these owners destined for a lonely, miserable existence coping with an unpredictable dog?

Like another PP said, our local forums is full of chat about a dog that has killed small dogs before. He hasn't been tracked down yet. What happens when that is a small child he attacks?

OP - if you can afford more specialised training, I would recommend you pay for a behaviourist to come with you on a walk and to advise on what to do in each situation. They are working outdoors at the moment. Do avoid those that won't get involved and are just advice dispensers. However if it doesn't work out, you need to do what is best for you.

@Reenskar how would you feel if your dog was killed in front of you by a dog that was 'given a second chance' by an owner who knew he was dangerous but after one uneventful walk decided he was ok?

Because if another dog like that killed my dog I would not fucking sit back and do nothing.

Hi OP,

If you ultimately think that you will end up giving him back, it will be best to do so sooner, rather than later, before he becomes more settled with you.

It may be something that can be improved, it may be something that can't. Things to bear in mind are that he has only just come to you and is still going to be very stressed. Do you know how long he was at the centre? If the barking and close proximity of dogs at the centre are all that he has known for a while then he is likely to be more anxious around other dogs.

With regards to the bite, an unknown dog approached yours, while he was on the lead, and was quite rude in its greeting. Many dogs would have been uncomfortable in this scenario- admittedly they would not all have gone on to bite the approaching dog. You say that there was no warning- I don't mean this at all rudely - but as a first time owner it may be that your dog did display some warning signs but you did not recognise them.

My suggestion would be to ask a friend who is an experienced owner to come out on a walk with you and see how they read your dog's interactions with other dogs you encounter. It may even be beneficial for them to be holding the lead. I am a dog walker - and well used to dog reactive dogs. Over the years I have had a number of clients say their dog is reactive to other dogs. But when I take them out there is no problem. That isn't to say that I am some sort of dog guru, just that I am more relaxed with the dog than they might be and the dog is picking up on their stress.

As a previous poster has mentioned, try and avoid busy dog walking areas. Although it isn't the most exciting, if you try and stick to pavements initially, theoretically most other dogs will be on lead. You can then manage how close dogs can get to your dog by changing direction, crossing the road etc. As the number of less stressful encounters he has with other dogs increases, he may become more relaxed and more tolerant.

It doesn’t sound an appropriate dog for a first time owner. A more experienced owner is needed.

no one is going to want a dog that bites other dogs and yet the OP should be happy to keep one that does?

One of the reasons why I would never get a rescue is because IMO the majority of them aren’t suitable for rehoming.

The rescues put such stringent conditions in place because they know that most of the dogs they have will never actually fit into a home and so it’s better to reject anyone who wants one and keep them locked up in kennels under the banner that they never put down a healthy dog.

Some of the dog charities make their money by keeping dogs locked up while saying that they can never be rehomed. If a dog can’t be rehomed then it’s not a healthy dog. Being put to sleep isn’t the worst thing that can happen to some of them.

The rescue haven’t been honest. There’s a vast difference between a dog who is a bit nervous in the beginning and barks and growls at other dogs, and one who absolutely attacks a dog and won’t let go.

The rescue are irresponsible and if that means the dog ends up being PTS then tbh maybe that would be better for the dog than passing it on from home to home and back again.

A dog being 'rude' on a greeting gets growled at. No bitten and not let go. Ffs. It's not ok. Ever.

A dog that is described as ‘indifferent’ to other dogs is not a dog that should have been rehomed to someone who regularly has another dog to stay over IMO . My dog is indifferent to other dogs , would have a fight at the drop of a hat if someone else starts it and I wouldn’t allow another dog in my house because he would hate it . OP just return the dog , he will be happier with someone else .

I think that attacking another dog to that extent is highly unusual and it’s disingenuous to say it is not. For that reason I would probably consider returning, but if you don’t want to do that OP (and I probably wouldn’t want to either) a muzzle would be a good idea.

How did we get from 'a dog is for life not just for Xmas' to 'you have to take the first dog that walks out of kennels and suck it up'?
The dog world has got itself stuck in a weird purity spiral that makes no sense.
The dog world on Mumsnet certainly has a purity spiral going on. I think it makes some people feel better to tot up their points and belittle others.

Some people love getting rescue dogs and adore helping their rescues work through issues and find a forever home. That's great.

Some people within that group think that they're somehow the Mother Theresa of dogs because their dog has all these complex behaviour issues, they love being able to go on about how much they sacrifice for their dog and positively adore any opportunity to point out how all other dog owners aren't as loving as they are, it's everyone else's fault that their dog reacted when they took them to a known busy place, and other dog owners who want a well socialized dog are only after a cute accessory.

It could be that the dog is stressed with his recent change of home and will settle down. It could be that he is leash reactive and fine off lead which would make it more manageable. It could be something that time and training for you both could fix
Equally this could be a lifelong problem, you could be stuck managing his behaviour for ever and may never be able to introduce him to your boyfriends dog, or any other for that matter.
If you can’t live with scenario number two, then I would return him. Taking on a rescue is a wonderful thing to do, but only if you have the experience to deal with the problem or are prepared to get professional help to become experienced enough. Plus the time money and patience for it and the knowledge that you might just have to learn to live with his behaviour if it isn’t truly ‘fixable’.In all fairness to every party, dog included, you need to know the problems up front in order to come to that decision.
In this case you did not. The longer he is with you, the harder it will be on him if you do decide he needs to go back. Not an easy decision to make OP....

OP you have taken the advice of the behaviourist and they have, quite rightly, told you that they may not be able to fix this. I do not think you would be doing the wrong thing to return it. Especially given that it is clear the reassurances you were given about its behaviour with other dogs are clearly incorrect (whether that was knowingly so or not). I feel that some rescue organisations are so keen to get animals rehomed they don't give enough consideration to the needs of the animal or the home it goes to. Equally, some are so fussy it's a wonder animals ever find new homes.

If you do decide to keep it you need to urgently invest in a Baskerville muzzle. You need to carefully introduce it, then the dog can wear it comfortably all the time when you take it out. That will make you feel safe that it can't injure another dog and it is also a clear signal to other people (who should know better anyway) that they should keep their dog away from yours. Then work with the behaviourist to see if you can lose this behaviour. As you've already been told though, there are no guarantees.

A lot of sense on this thread, I think another huge problem is that nowadays rescues are the only way to go, but as someone said above people are given a dog and that's their dog. We've been looking for a child friendly dog in every rescue centre for the last year. Most that come in are for adult only homes, but in some less reputable places there's breeds that are unsuitable for children being given to homes with children. We have been to see some fantastic dogs that got the shittiest deal and were very obviously more suited to a one person family but they couldn't find that. I have seen animals cowering and crying and been told to bring the kids over closer, they'd be fine. The actual suitable dogs are- well we've honestly not found many and the ones we have are gone. I dont know how people end up with the mongrel, labs and retriever that would have been the norm when I was young

I'm sad about the cynicism about rescue charities on here. We have re-homed 4 dogs over the last 30 years and had very little by way of problems with any of them (dachshund, two staffies and a bull lurcher). WE have found the rescues - Bristol dogs home, Many Tears and Rescue Remedies have been very thorough in assessing us and checking if we were suitable for the dogs that were our first choice and delighted to get updates from us as t how they were settling in.
Only one of the dogs we have owned has bitten us - and that was the pedigree puppy we bought from a highly acclaimed breeder where we saw him with his parents and did everything by the book (Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen).
We didn't need a behaviourist to sort out our PBGV, we sat down together and worked out what had happened and why, and sorted him out ourselves.
There are so many dogs in rescue that are only there because of divorce, the death of an older owner, house moves t places that won't take dogs etc. etc. behaviour problems are usually resolved in foster before rehousing.
One of our rescues, the second Staffie was the most benign and loving dog I have ever come across, he even liked going to the vet's where he would cheerfully endure all that was required.
If you are prepared to accept that rescues have very high standards when re-homing - and rightly so - there is a rescue dog out there for you.

@LolaSmiles

I do love the approach to having a dog some have on here: You should only ever get a rescue because anything else is obviously a puppy farm. You should be totally willing to have a dog who is unpredictable and attacks other dogs. If you dare say that's not what you're looking for in a dog then you're a terrible dog owner who thinks dogs are a disposable accessory.

OP ignore those who are looking to stick the boot in. It probably makes them feel good. Some dogs take more work than others and not everyone wants to rescue a dog that's liable to be aggressive to other dogs. Reputable rescues will work with you and if you feel that this dog's behaviour is too much for you as a first time owner then it's kinder to you and the dog to take them back so they can have an owner who is more experienced.

Quite! It makes owning a dog sound like some sort of miserable sentence. "If your dog savages small dogs to death you should buy it some lessons at a nice trainer and some soothing treats. And it's all your fault."

Every day I see people walking nice, pleasant dogs. Perhaps they're all experts in healing dog trauma?

The vast majority of my local shelters have the 'experienced owner only' label on their dogs, along with 'no cats' and 'no children', so I doubt I could adopt from a shelter anyway.

@stayathomer

A lot of sense on this thread, I think another huge problem is that nowadays rescues are the only way to go, but as someone said above people are given a dog and that's their dog. We've been looking for a child friendly dog in every rescue centre for the last year. Most that come in are for adult only homes, but in some less reputable places there's breeds that are unsuitable for children being given to homes with children. We have been to see some fantastic dogs that got the shittiest deal and were very obviously more suited to a one person family but they couldn't find that. I have seen animals cowering and crying and been told to bring the kids over closer, they'd be fine. The actual suitable dogs are- well we've honestly not found many and the ones we have are gone. I dont know how people end up with the mongrel, labs and retriever that would have been the norm when I was young

Don't take the risk. The shelters here are full of abandoned Staffies which could have been bred for fighting and Huskies, which require a lot of walking. Fashionable dogs abandoned fast, having led cramped, sad lives that will not have left them well.

Either contact a breed-specific rescue for a particular breeds, or just go down the KC Breeder route (not Gumtree, not Facebook.) Yes, people will sneer for you not getting a rescue, but you're under no obligation to replace a happy dog-owning experience with over a decade of therapy for a damaged, dangerous dog.

as a first-time dog owner, I feel out of my depth.

Yes, take the dog back right now. It's not at all fair on the animal - it clearly isn't a problem-free dog and it needs an experienced owner at the very least. You SPECIFICALLY need a dog which is good with other dogs - there are plenty of them in rescues, give a home to one of them where you can be the right owner for the dog and take this one back now, with the new information you have on its behaviour so that they can find a suitable owner for it.

Please don't get rid of him. He had a fright and doesn't know you well enough yet to know you will protect him, he could also have been protecting you.

It took months for our little dog to come around and be ok with other dogs. He is a rescue and had been with other dogs and we were told he was fine with them but we found out he wasn't when we took him on a walk and something similar happened. He is honestly a different dog now, happy, calm, not aggressive at all, he just needed to get used to his new life.

@SusieSue4 Please don't get rid of him. He had a fright and doesn't know you well enough yet to know you will protect him, he could also have been protecting you.

He seriously injured another pet. Your little dog is little. This is not a small harmless dog - it wouldn't let go so is possibly a bulldog/bull terrier - not harmless. Keeping a dog you know could kill or seriously injure someone else's beloved pet isn't the same thing at all.

@Nottherealslimshady keep at it, it is achievable!

My Mum's rescue dog had issues as he had been used for lamping and - we suspect - dog fight training. He was reactive to dogs, unbeknown to her, and in her first month he turned on a young pup that had bounded out of a hedge and taken him by surprise. He did nip him. I remember coming on here & getting a kicking when I asked for advice.

She turned to a police dog trainer and 7 years on he's the most obedient agility-going, class-loving whippet cross ever! The trainer uses him in class (which he still goes to religiously) to show that most dogs can be trained. I took him on a walk yesterday, we passed 4 'fluffies' and not a peep.

OP, you may want to talk to a reputable dog trainer, your dog may be similar to this. It can be trained out.

@Vodkacranberryplease

Absolutely NOWHERE in this thread does it say what kind of dog it was or that it was small OR that it seriously injured the other dog, infact OP stated the other dog was NOT injured. All dogs can be trained, look at the other message under my original one. It takes time and effort which some people just don't have.