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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think how men have got away with this for far to long

444 replies

Alex50 · 24/06/2020 13:03

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53064741

Why don’t they pay for their children and think it’s ok?

OP posts:
formerbabe · 24/06/2020 18:15

@StamfordHill

Child maintenance is about the child being financially supported. It's not about punishing or rewarding the parents for whatever choices they have or haven't made

B1rdbra1n · 24/06/2020 18:24

Stamford, are you saying that when a woman terminates a pregnancy that is comparable to a parent abandoning their child?

mathanxiety · 24/06/2020 18:25

@theoldtrout01876, I am in the US too.

The only aspect of our arrangement after divorce which exH was scrupulous about was the child support. This was because failure to pay would have resulted in a massive hit to his professional license and potentially jail time.

Your account of the man who had his social security checks garnished gives me hope that if exH wasn't entirely honest with his tax returns (I am reasonably sure with exH but never completely so) I could still make a claim against him even though the DCs are all over 18 now.

annabel85 · 24/06/2020 18:33

@wineandroses1

The CMS is an absolute disgrace (as are the dead-beats scumbags that refuse to pay to support their own children). The Government in this country does nothing to enforce child maintenance, and yet tax evaders are hunted down. I don't get it. We desperately need an American-style system that comes down heavily on the huge number of parents that clearly don't love their children enough to ensure they have food on the table and shoes on their feet. Fucking scum.

I've no personal axe to grind here, but have seen the desperation of single parents (mostly single mothers) when their partners simply walk away and then hide/deny/fiddle their incomes in order to literally take the food out of their children's mouths. They should be outcasts in our society, but they're not, and I don't know why. They should be imprisoned and their assets transferred to their children.

It needs to be better all round in this country.

Deadbeat Dads need to be hounded down more to pay, but on the other hand there are plenty of women who without good reason deny access to the father and use the child as a bargaining tool against him (it's happened to my own brother).

It's dreadful on the mother and the children though when the Dad won't pay and walks away.

Devlesko · 24/06/2020 18:36

I'd like to see the USA way brought in.
Make them pay or off they go.
Doubt they'd go on fathering kids all over the place with a criminal record.
None of these women happy to take others dregs would touch them with a barge pole. Grin

Devlesko · 24/06/2020 18:38

You could start a petition but the government are the biggest offenders.
Look at our PM more women and children than he can count.

Coffeeandbeans · 24/06/2020 18:44

Just remember that all those ex’s that don’t pay themselves a decent salary in order to avoid child mtnce have been stuffed under the furloughed scheme.

Serendipity79 · 24/06/2020 18:49

@StamfordHill would you open up this “abandon and walk away” privilege to women as well as men? What would happen if both parents decided to just divorce their child and walk away from their responsibilities? 🤔 who pays to raise them if that happens?

Having children comes with costs and it’s only fair that they are borne by both parents.

There are exceptions - some parents pay without question and yes sometimes it’s women who leave their kids but generally it seems that women are left raising the children most of the time, often in less well paid jobs, juggling work with childcare and school while dad goes off, finds any excuse he can not to pay or pays reluctantly and then slates the mother of his kids at every opportunity if she so much as dares to have a haircut because she must have used his hard earned money which he deigned to give to her. Woe betide her if she gets a babysitter and goes out on a weekend - who does she think she is exactly wanting a life for herself??

I wish these ladies a lot of luck with their campaign. Perhaps they could ask for a review to be set up of the whole system and then employ female project managers to run it. I’d be front of the queue if they did! 🙂

PrincessConsuelaVaginaHammock · 24/06/2020 18:55

@Coffeeandbeans

Just remember that all those ex’s that don’t pay themselves a decent salary in order to avoid child mtnce have been stuffed under the furloughed scheme.
Yes, that is a happy thought.
Whingeingpom · 24/06/2020 19:01

We really need to have an overall attitude change in this country though.

My ex didn't pay for my dc for 3 years after we split up. I worked my arse off to make sure they never went without anything - they went to all the clubs, had all the toys, everything. I on the other hand, cut my own hair, clothes from the charity shop, no nights out, not even a bottle of wine. I went without so my dc didn't have to. This is the reality for many single parents, I'm certainly not exceptional. Eventually he decided that he would start chipping in (just below the minimum he was legally required to). Too fucking right I went and had my nails done. I bought myself a dress and me and dc even went on holiday. Obviously I have been vilified by my ex and all his family, as well as a big portion of my family - why should he be "funding my lifestyle"? I clearly didn't need the money Hmm.

As long as we take the attitude that single rps must be destitute before they are deserving of any "help" from nrps, this is not going to change. We need to all understand that nrps have equal responsibility for their children, so if the nrp can afford to go on holiday or have a beer then the rp ought to be able to as well. Equally, if the rp has to go without to keep a room over their child's head, why shouldn't the nrp? The cost of feeding my dc and keeping them clothed has never been proportional to my income - if I don't have enough money I just have to find it.

It's all so deeply unfair.

SoVeryLost · 24/06/2020 19:08

@StamfordHill

If women can actually abort the unborn babies, thus ending a potential life, or give up a baby for adoption, why shouldn't men have the right to at least 'divorce themselves' from the child, and shake off all responsibility?
Why can't men, wear a condom or get the snip if they don't want the inconvenience of having a child to support. It is ridiculous that you think an adult man should be able to leave his child to suffer. The child that had no choice but to exist.
mathanxiety · 24/06/2020 19:09

The problem is the cake is only so big, whereas the offspring can be effectively infinite. If a man has 10 kids and earns (stop laughing at the back there) £1,000 a month, then how much does each child get ?

Or if he's on benefits - which as we know are already below the bare minimum - how do we extract the necessary 10xwhatever from his £72/week ?

Well, in the state where I live, there is a formula involving a percentage of all verifiable income (which isn't the catch it might be, as lying in the court about your income, presenting false tax returns, etc are offenses in and of themselves). You receive £72 per week to live on, so you pay as follows:

[State] Child Support Old Law
[State] child support law has traditionally been calculated by taking the obligor’s net income (gross income, minus taxes and other deductions), and applying a certain percentage based on the number of minor children, for example. The [State] Marriage and Dissolution of Marriage Act (*MDMA) guidelines required that from his/her net income, a support-paying parent must pay twenty percent (20%) for one child; twenty-eight percent (28%) for two children; thirty-two percent (32%) for three children; forty percent (40%) for four children; forty-five percent (45%) for five; and fifty percent (50%) for six plus children to the other parent (the oblige). Net income is determined after making deductions for taxes, social security, retirement contributions, health insurance and any other deduction permitted under state law.

[State] Child Support New Law
Under the new [State] child support law, both parents’ incomes are considered when calculating support. Thus, child support is calculated based on the combined net incomes of both parents. The old method of using flat percentages based on the number of children is no longer be used. Instead, child support is now calculated as follows:

<span class="italic">Determine each parent’s “net income” by running their gross incomes through a gross to net conversion chart.</span>
<span class="italic">Combine both parents’ net incomes to determine the combined net income.</span>
<span class="italic">Determine what percentages of the combined net income is represented by each parent’s net incomes.</span>
<span class="italic">The combined net income from step 2 will be plugged into an income shares chart to determine the basic child support obligation.</span>
<span class="italic">Multiply the resulting number from step 4 with the percentages from step 3, for each parent.</span>
<span class="italic">The resulting numbers are each parent’s child support obligations. The number for the non-paying parent, typically the parent with the majority of parenting time, will be presumed to already be applied to the child. The number for the paying parent will be that parent’s child support obligation and must be paid to the non-paying parent.</span>

Under the new income-shares model, [State] courts consider that the typical costs to raise a child for a family should resemble the income level that would have been in place had the parents involved in each case stayed together. Accordingly, if each parent is working and earning income, both sets of income are added together to arrive at the amount necessary to raise the child(ren). In considering the costs of raising a child or children, [State] courts will take into account the cost of housing, clothes, food, transportation, ordinary uncovered medical expenses, ordinary extracurricular activities, entertainment and education. Judges are also free to consider any other extraordinary circumstances in setting support.

Because the principle of paying for your children matters.

Condoms are much cheaper.

mathanxiety · 24/06/2020 19:14

Also, in the US, child support paid is deductible from your federal taxes, and not reportable as income for tax purposes for the receiving spouse. It's not all stick; there is a little carrot in there.

Afaik, child support received is used to calculate eligibility for Medicaid, free school lunch, and food stamps (all administered by individual states) but you would have to be receiving a lot to bring you over the federal poverty multiple figure that is used to determine eligibility.

NYCDreaming · 24/06/2020 19:20

If women can actually abort the unborn babies, thus ending a potential life, or give up a baby for adoption, why shouldn't men have the right to at least 'divorce themselves' from the child, and shake off all responsibility?

These two things aren't equivalent. The first one is about a woman's right to bodily autonomy. Men have this right too, but it doesn't come up for them in this situation because it is the woman who has to carry the child in her body.

The second is the right of the already existing child to be supported by both parents. This isn't unique to the father - if the child lives with the father then the mother would be required to pay child support.

DisobedientHamster · 24/06/2020 19:21

Because the principle of paying for your children matters.

Condoms are much cheaper.

Just an observation but among my US friends, more men seem willing to have vasectomies once they have completed their families rather than leave things to chance - knowing you have to pay to support your child seems to be a factor. Women don't seem to be so eager to 'partner' up with men who have children already. There doesn't appear to be as much 'falling' pregnant.

mathanxiety · 24/06/2020 19:40

That is my observation too about vasectomies. YY to the lack of surprise pregnancies.

I am not sure which came first, the concern about paying for children or the laws that insist on it.

There is still a fair amount of creative accounting and outright child support dodging, but the fact that child support laws have teeth makes a difference imo.

TheFormerPorpentinaScamander · 24/06/2020 20:07

If women can actually abort the unborn babies, thus ending a potential life, or give up a baby for adoption, why shouldn't men have the right to at least 'divorce themselves' from the child, and shake off all responsibility?

How long does the father get to decide he wants to divorce the child?
Up to 12 weeks gestation?
20 weeks? 40 weeks?
Child first birthday? 10th? Until he meets a new woman and realises the DC are an inconvenience?
What if the baby was planned and then he "changes his mind" leaving a woman who thought she could afford her baby suddenly unable to.

If a woman has a termination (as is her right - bodily autonomy) then it is of no financial consequence to anyone. Sure the man might be upset, but we cant change biology. If a man "divorces" his child and walks away then a woman is left to (most likely) struggle and a child is left with a parent who is struggling.
They are not a comparable like for like situation

gumball37 · 24/06/2020 21:28

I've known some that would keep the clothes the custodial parent sent the child in and send back ones that didn't fit. The worst was when his mother sent him home in clothes too small and girls shoes 2 sizes to small. He ended up having no visitation with her and just lives with his dad and stepmom. He's a great guy now... But damn things were awful for a while.

I can't understand how people can treat their children so carelessly.

Hell... I'm just getting child support for the first time for my 13 yr old (I think it's been 6 months or so). I only get it because they take it from his disability checks before he gets it. He also liked to the judge about working... So she based it on what he could make as he was obviously working under the table.

He was PIIIISSSSED. Still is. But seriously... I've raised my son physically, mentally, emotionally and financially his whole life.

I also think the bullshit about "well she'll use it on her nails or hair" yeah... She might you fucker... Because she's paying all the costs for the child by herself.... You're essentially paying her back! Morons.
Ugh.. the whole system infuriates me.

The lack of care for the children or people struggling. For fuck's sake... Life isn't a competition... No one wins. Making someone else struggle out of spite doesn't make you stronger or better than them just because you aren't struggling.

gumball37 · 24/06/2020 21:29

*lied

Whatisthisfuckery · 24/06/2020 23:02

Well, I think the moral of the story is, if you can’t be arsed to pay to feed or clothe your child, make sure you’re the one who fucks off first. First parent out wins, second parent out gets SS and a criminal record for child neglect.

That’s the way it works in this country and it’s a fucking disgrace.

Whatisthisfuckery · 24/06/2020 23:12

Just to be clear, my post was sarcastic. I’m not pissed off that I have to pay to raise my son. I love my child and do my best for him. I’m just pissed off that I’m the only parent who is expected to pay for him.

StamfordHill · 24/06/2020 23:57

This reply has been deleted

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B1rdbra1n · 25/06/2020 00:04

Obviously they'll withhold support
Because they only want the child to be financially supported if they can have access to the child and receipts to show where the money was spent, if those conditions aren't fulfilled they are quite happy for the child to go without?
Out of sight out of mind, quite happy to use the child as a bargaining tool?
of course you will reply that the mother is not playing fair and that she is using the child as a bargaining tool even so does that mean it's alright for the father to do the same punish the child because the mother won't co-operate
do what I say or the kid gets it

morriseysquif · 25/06/2020 00:05

Petition, write to MPs, I agree wholeheartedly. It helps when a template letter is posted to be be adapted.

FithColumnist · 25/06/2020 00:43

@Soubriquet

How amazing is it that these genuinely nice men always seem to procreate with mad women.

Poor sods

And how bizarre that these otherwise discerning women always seem to procreate with deadbeats and are shocked when they don’t pay up!