to think that people don't realise how tough it is being a GP?

[naima99]

My dad is a GP. He used to love his job, got home at a reasonable time and had more time to spend with his patients.

Now, he regularly gets to work at 7am and leaves at 9:30pm. He has no time for lunch a lot of the time. He hates that he doesn't have the time he used to have for his patients. He gets tonnes of abuse when he's running late but isn't allowed to say that he's late because his last patient was having a suspected heart attack in front of him, or that he had a child in front of him with undiagnosed diabetes whose life was in danger etc. He's lost so many staff members because they're all fed up. He has no life outside of work because he is working on the weekends as they're so short staffed.

He knows so many doctors in the same position.

Now I'm not claiming that GPs are heroes or deserve any more than the rest of us, but I hear them being slated so so much.

People get angry that they can't get an appointment, that the GP only let them talk about two medical conditions in a 10 minute appointment, that google told them something different so the GP must be wrong which results in complaints or anger directed towards them. I was on a conference call the other day when my colleagues randomly started slaying GPs and them not seeing people face to face during covid saying they need to 'man up'

I don't know if IABU to think that a lot of people don't quite understand that appointments in the surgery are such a small part of being a GP, and that it is a pretty gruelling job at times. Maybe I am just being protective over my dad as I can see him falling apart in front of me.

Does anyone agree or AIBU?

Bloody hell this makes me feel sad. Yesterday I met the most loveliest group of younger men. They were so charming, helpful, & one of them actually made me swoon a bit sorry DH

Turned out they are a group of Junior / Student GP’s! They were so excited about their placements all around the UK I felt genuinely happy for them. And a tiny weenie bit jealous because I’m stuck here and my life & job is boring

Now it feels like sending lambs off to slaughter.

I hope they flourish and I’m sure they will

Kazzyhoward they don't charge for letters although a lot of surgeries do. If people have to pay they feel they should have it there and then and not have to wait. Therefore the letters are not done in their own time whenever that is.

@Sceptre86

It isn't a normal job so why should they get paid a normal wage? For someone as highly skilled they do not earn shitloads in comparison to gps in other countries. People see £70k and think that is a huge amount and compared to the average wage it is but if you actually think about the training, constant need to update skills and the important decisions they have to make in a 10-15 minute session then it is justified. A newly qualified gp is very unlikely to be earning £100k. To be a gp you have to train incredibly hard. Five years at medical school which is grueling, then another two years as a junior doctor (in an understaffed, overwhelmed hospital) before embarking on another three years training whilst doing endless exams, accreditations, cpd whilst working a full time job. Getting a gp training job is through a point based application which means candidates can end up in different parts of the country from where they live.

They are not valued or respected enough for the job that they do.

This. People think GPS all earn over 100k. They don’t. It depends hugely on what sort of GP you are- Partner, locum, sessional, salaried. It is not as straight forward. Not all practices are equal. The average salary for a Full time GP doing 40 hours a week is just under 70,000. Now that is a great salary compared to the national average but there is a large amount stress, need for on going training, previous low paid years or lack of earning due to prolonged training. You have repaying their student loan and in the new the system they are some of the few who will actually pay off their loan. Plus out of that salary you have to pay insurance which for GPs is expensive, GMC membership, college membership, courses to keep up to date. Medicine has also changed- patients are much more complex due to various reasons. Hospital consultants tend to earn a lot more. The roles are different in different ways and they are tough for different reasons. For all those saying it is good money for a little bit of stress I suggest spending one week with a GP. I work in a hospital btw.

If you work as a nurse and a doctor prescribes medication wrong for a patient and the nurse doesn’t realise (it happens a lot) it’s the nurse that will be in the firing line!! NOT the Dr*

I see this bullshit peddled a lot on various threads and fora. It’s disingenuous at best. If a doctor prescribes medication incorrectly -eg the wrong dose- and the nurse administers it of course the nurse is responsible for what they did. Nurses are highly trained and skilled professionals and of course they’re responsible for their own practice. “But the doctor told me to do it” is not an acceptable excuse, not should it be. But the doctor is also responsible for their actions and to suggest they’re exonerated while the nurse is held accountable is utter nonsense.

I do think it's possible to be a very bad GP and get away with it endlessly. Harder to be very bad in other comparable professions.

@sammylady37

If you work as a nurse and a doctor prescribes medication wrong for a patient and the nurse doesn’t realise (it happens a lot) it’s the nurse that will be in the firing line!! NOT the Dr*

I see this bullshit peddled a lot on various threads and fora. It’s disingenuous at best. If a doctor prescribes medication incorrectly -eg the wrong dose- and the nurse administers it of course the nurse is responsible for what they did. Nurses are highly trained and skilled professionals and of course they’re responsible for their own practice. “But the doctor told me to do it” is not an acceptable excuse, not should it be. But the doctor is also responsible for their actions and to suggest they’re exonerated while the nurse is held accountable is utter nonsense.

No it’s not at all. It’s a well know fact that Drs are much better protected. Don’t get uptight about what I’ve stated. It’s absolutely true Doctors are seen as Gods!!! Especially from a patients point of view. Did I say either party was not accountable for their own actions??? What I did say is nurses get the brunt of it.

Don’t make out that a GP is so much busier than an RGN!!! They are on an excellent salary for the EXCELLENT WORK THEY DO!

The fact that some people because they are a wife of a GP they are trying to down play the Salary of a GP. Lots of people work hard for not much more than minimum wage it’s shocking to suggest other wise. Even people within a the law field work long hours I don’t know why GPs are any different. It comes with the job and the med profession is similar for a lot of roles.....

Well said OP.

*No it’s not at all. It’s a well know fact that Drs are much better protected.
Don’t get uptight about what I’ve stated. It’s absolutely true Doctors are seen as Gods!!! Especially from a patients point of view.
Did I say either party was not accountable for their own actions??? What I did say is nurses get the brunt of it.

Don’t make out that a GP is so much busier than an RGN!!! They are on an excellent salary for the EXCELLENT WORK THEY DO*

Talk about moving the goalposts. And overuse of exclamation marks.

You explicitly stated that If you work as a nurse and a doctor prescribes medication wrong for a patient and the nurse doesn’t realise (it happens a lot) it’s the nurse that will be in the firing line!! NOT the Dr* and I called bullshit on that because it is bullshit.

I wouldn’t say it’s a “well known fact that doctors are better protected” either. It’s an opinion frequently put about by nurses and other HCPs though. And I’m not based in the U.K., but where I am doctors need to take out extra indemnity insurance because that provided by their state employer is so crap. Depending on the specialty, it can be many thousands per year, even tens of thousands for things like neuro-surgery and obstetrics. Here, nurses do not require such separate indemnity, as that provided by their employer is adequate. It may be different in the U.K., I don’t know. I do know there are indemnity organisations for doctors in the U.K. which suggests they need that insurance but I don’t know if there are similar for nurses.

Whether or not doctors are “seen as Gods” is irrelevant to the point I made, and it’s also quite debatable, just read this very thread for a view of how patients perceive doctors.

And I made no comment whatsoever about which of GPs and RGNs are busier, so I’m not sure why you put your last paragraph in your reply to me, complete with OTT capitals and exclamation marks.

If your not in UK. Then how do you know the protocol? Nurses do pay for their registration too!. I’ll leave you to think you know it all even though your not in UK and nursing and being a doctor is usually different depending on the Country. That keen to stick your bloody nose in. Doctors being Gods is NOT irrelevant because you don’t hear of doctors getting sacked as often as nurses why is this? Clearly MY OPINION doesn’t sit well with you.

I’m entitled to it weather you want to read it is entirely up to you.

I know that comparisons between the two systems are difficult but one thing I like about health care in the US is patient choice. The large group practice I use has about 200 doctors, about 60% of whom are GP's. If I don't like the one I have I just book my next appointment with another. My kids see a pediatrician. If I have a skin issue I book directly with the dermatologist. I can switch to another practice too if I like.

GP's here get rated on patient acquisition and retention. I think it makes them a bit more customer service oriented. I also think they're not as swamped as yours, at least in my area. It's very rare for me to hear someone slagging off their GP.

No the nurses don’t require it and NEITHER do the doctors here in UK have to pay tens of thousands I’m not sure why you are comparing based on a total different Country . If you are some else other than UK and the salary clearly must reflect what ever they have to pay out!!

@sammylady37. In the U.K. doctors are covered by their hospital but do also need to purchase separate indemnity insurance. Not quite sure of how it works completely in GP but they do need their own insurance as well which is thousands of pounds. Nurses are covered by their practice or hospital and don’t need to buy separate insurance.

@Shinebright72 my insurance is thousands of pounds as a doctor in the U.K.

Nurses do have a registration to renew I think every 3 years. I can’t remember. They are on a lower salary by far so obviously they pay lower fees.

He often wishes he never went in to general practice or medicine at all. He can quit and do a different jobs? I have carer jobs going in the home I manage. It's very stressful and mistakes can be fatal. We've also been sacked off by GPs, CPNs and nurses etc due to covid. We were deemed too thick to certify deaths pre covid but now they've ran for the hills without a backwards glance we're allowed to do it. Oh and it's a few pence above minimum wage. Would he like details to apply?

*If your not in UK. Then how do you know the protocol? Nurses do pay for their registration too!. I’ll leave you to think you know it all even though your not in UK and nursing and being a doctor is usually different depending on the Country. That keen to stick your bloody nose in. Doctors being Gods is NOT irrelevant because you don’t hear of doctors getting sacked as often as nurses why is this? Clearly MY OPINION doesn’t sit well with you.

I’m entitled to it weather you want to read it is entirely up to you*

Crikey, such drama.
Firstly, I clearly stated I didn’t know the U.K. policies and then went on to outline the Irish ones. Not once did I try to suggest I knew it all. There’s no reason I can’t post on MN just because I’m not in the U.K., is there?

Secondly, you have misinterpreted my post. I’m not talking about registration fees. I’m talking about indemnity insurance. I’m well aware that both doctors and nurses have to pay registration fees, but I outlined how in Ireland doctors also need to pay indemnity insurance but nurses don’t. I stated that i didn’t know if that was also the case in the U.K., so again, not claiming to know it all.

As to why one doesn’t hear of doctors getting sacked as often as nurses, well firstly, I’m not sure that’s true. Secondly, if it is, there could be a myriad of reasons for it. One fairly obvious one would be that there are vastly more nurses than doctors so it may seem that more of them are sacked but if you looked at the numbers pro rata it may not actually be the case. Or perhaps the misconduct/misdemeanours are of a different scale/level. I don’t know. I’d be interested to read some decent research on this.

And of course you’re entitled to your opinion. Your opinion may of course be complete bullshit, but nonetheless you’re entitled to hold it.

Nurses do have a registration to renew I think every 3 years. I can’t remember. They are on a lower salary by far so obviously they pay lower fees

Registration is entirely different to indemnity insurance. Indemnity insurance is all about protection and cover for being sued. Doctors in Ireland have to pay it and a doctor in the U.K. has stated on this thread that they also have to pay it. The employer-provided insurance is generally aimed at protecting the organization and not the individual doctor, hence the fact doctors pay many many thousands for additional cover.

@Bluebellpainting
In the U.K. doctors are covered by their hospital but do also need to purchase separate indemnity insurance. Not quite sure of how it works completely in GP but they do need their own insurance as well which is thousands of pounds. Nurses are covered by their practice or hospital and don’t need to buy separate insurance

Thanks for info. Very similar to Ireland so. I pay €4K per year for this, but I’m in a low risk specialty. There are some specialties where they literally pay €60k per year. I’m not sure how much it is for GPs.

I adore my GP and most of her colleagues. They are excellent.

@sammylady37

Nurses do have a registration to renew I think every 3 years. I can’t remember. They are on a lower salary by far so obviously they pay lower fees

Registration is entirely different to indemnity insurance. Indemnity insurance is all about protection and cover for being sued. Doctors in Ireland have to pay it and a doctor in the U.K. has stated on this thread that they also have to pay it. The employer-provided insurance is generally aimed at protecting the organization and not the individual doctor, hence the fact doctors pay many many thousands for additional cover.

I don’t live in Ireland. But I know your rules yet again are different as it’s NHS you also pay depending on where you live North or South.

@WaterOffADucksCrack

He often wishes he never went in to general practice or medicine at all. He can quit and do a different jobs? I have carer jobs going in the home I manage. It's very stressful and mistakes can be fatal. We've also been sacked off by GPs, CPNs and nurses etc due to covid. We were deemed too thick to certify deaths pre covid but now they've ran for the hills without a backwards glance we're allowed to do it. Oh and it's a few pence above minimum wage. Would he like details to apply?

This

@sammylady37 no worries. Yes sounds very similar. Costs do vary depending on speciality here to. I remember in medical school being shown a graph comparing indemnity costs and GPs and obstetrics had some of the highest. I don’t know if they are as high as in Ireland but it isn’t cheap. Plus, as is probably the same for you, you spend 1000s on exams, your have your regulatory body (GMC), the college of your speciality cost (e.g. The royal college of physicians) and if you want to join your union costs. I hate this nurse versus doctor thing- the jobs are different and have differing responsibilities but we have to work together. Saying one job is tougher or that they sacked more often is just continuing to try to cause a divide. Luckily things have moved on from this and while some still have that attitude, it is disappearing (luckily). I couldn’t do my job without nurses but the responsibility and training is very different for nurses who haven’t specialised. My mum is a nurse and admits she couldn’t deal with what I have to deal with but I say the same to her for our differing roles. (I say this as you now have nurse consultants etc who have undergone more training and hence there is more crossover with the role of a doctor)

I have had an awful lot of poor experiences from GPs. I used to have a great GP, she retired and then since then ive seen lots of GPs - the majority have been incredibly patronising and dismissive. Have missed basic conditions. Waiting 4 weeks for an appointment, being brought in 45 minutes late and then being shrugged off doesnt give anyone a great opinion of their GP tbh.

Obviously a massive part of this is how the system is set up, bit at the same time I shouldnt have to constantly cut my GP slack when my health is involved.

I work in a hospital and actually see a lot of Pts who have been dismissed by their GP. I also see hospital drs being dismissive of women they consider to be a pain. I think theres a massive problem in healthcare with how women are treated, how women in pain are ignored and dismissed.

And it is true if GPs hate it so much they can leave. I think an awful lot of people actually work incredibly hard, and thats why these threads always get peoples backs up because just like theres a lack of understanding about how hard GPs work, GPs equally have very little knowledge about how hard others work.

@Bluebellpainting yep, costs here are quite high too- medical council, and get this- I pay both an Irish college and royal college subscription! Union fees are significant too. Plus the costs of maintaining cpd.

I agree with your points re not having an us vs them divide with nurses, and agree totally that it’s a different training, skill set etc. But it really grates on me when I see the utter nonsense about nurses bearing the brunt of the flak for doctors’ mistakes, or doctors offloading work into nurses purely to reduce their own workload (rather than to actually re-focus their work onto something else that needs their attention more than the other) and doctors “running for the hills” during covid. It’s bullshit, it’s unfair and it’s not collegial. We could all start telling stories about individual colleagues we’ve had who’ve been lazy, bad at their job, always last to the bedside of a cardiac arrest etc etc but this tarring of all doctors is complete nonsense.

rant over!