To think it's ironic about Niqab and face coverings

[IsntItIronicDontYouThink]

Just thought about this and how ironically, face coverings have become mandatory on public transports and it makes me think of Muslim women (Niqab wearing women specifically) who've had a hard time because of their face coverings to now find that everyone has to cover their faces (for different reasons yes but still ironic, isn't it?)

Googled to see if anyone else mentions this. Here's a piece I found about it (There's more but just picked this one).

www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/06/12/face-mask-compulsory-muslim-women-12838585/amp/

So its a womans fault if a man abuses her?

Of course not but if people wear outrageously modest or revealing clothes then others will judge them and have opinions about what they are wearing. Do you not notice what people wear?

@WakeAndBake

So its a womans fault if a man abuses her?

Of course not but if people wear outrageously modest or revealing clothes then others will judge them and have opinions about what they are wearing. Do you not notice what people wear?

Only unpleasant people will judge them. No, I don’t care what other people are wearing so it isn’t something I pay attention to, I would be crap if I had to describe someones clothes to the police, just as I don’t care what people think of my own clothes.

Says who? Your conditioning that clothes have to have a certain shape or fit to not look ridiculous (subjective btw) or something you naturally came up with when you were a baby?

You don’t think any fashion styles look silly? Not hippies? Goths? Punks? Hipsters? Priests? Everything is equally sensible in your eyes?

How boring for people that want to stand out!

So, not really cultural appropriation is it? It’s more that it’s regarded inappropriate attire in a Western context, where seeing one’s face is considered highly important

I would find it so in the UK. It's the 'culture' here among many muslims as well as the culture in MENA or Saudi or wherever. I don't live in Saudi so can't say what is cultural appropriation or not there . It's not regarded as "inappropriate" attire here. It's just not the norm among non-Muslim.

It's not a cultural practise for me it is a religious requirement. So no freedom for religion in the UK now either? @HelloToMyKitty

And lol at the PP who keep harping on about dictatorships in the ME. The vast majority of Muslims in the UK have South Asian ethnicity. My ancestors, as far back as I can trace them are not from a 'Muslim' country. Plus why are the citizens from those countries responsible for what their authoritarian governments do? In any case, NOTHING to do with UK Muslims the same way I won't be asking white Christians in UK to explain the not-so-long-ago Apartheid in South Africa by white Christians because it's just as ridiculous.

You don’t think any fashion styles look silly? Not hippies? Goths? Punks? Hipsters? Priests? Everything is equally sensible in your eyes?

How boring for people that want to stand out!

The point is that you claim it looks silly as if your word came from you and not what you've been conditioned to see as silly. Your claim also implies because you think it looks silly, everybody else should think so too and those who wear it are somehow doing it wrong because of it.

I have clothing styles, hair styles, what have you I think look silly but guess what? It's not my business to go around telling people I think you look silly so do something else instead. I'm decent enough to know different people see things differently. That it looks silly to me doesnt mean it is actually silly or it looks silly to the person wearing it.

How boring for everyone to look the same because we are all afraid of looking silly to randoms on the street or internet. That's the problem with society, people are afraid of being themselves while pretending they are being sensible. Then you see how they oppose those who are actually doing what they want and harming no one. Makes you wonder why?

As they say, opinions are like ......., everyone has them.

It's not a cultural practise for me it is a religious requirement

It’s not a religious requirement, is it, since most Muslim women do not wear niqab? It seems like a personal commitment you’ve made.

But the hijab is compulsory in places like Iran for women to simply appear in public, regardless of their religious affiliation. There are still religious minorities in Iran, like Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians. And ISIS compelled women to wear the niqab, Afghanistan compelled women to wear the burka (again, religious minorities typically not exempt from these requirements).

As for the UK, I assume it has freedom of religion. I wouldn’t know the details, I’m not from there. But it has limits, doesn’t it? You can’t practice polygamy there, for one.

But niqab seems to me a cultural practice, since the Quran is quite vague on this topic and the niqab pre-dates Islam anyway

And lol at the PP who keep harping on about dictatorships in the ME. The vast majority of Muslims in the UK have South Asian ethnicity.
Don't Arabs only make up 20% of Muslims internationally? Most Muslims are South Asian, East Asian or African.

I think this religion, clothing and anti social pro social distancing thing is beginning to get a little heated and dare I say toxic?

Simply put in the modern western society like here in the UK you can wear anything you like (even just birthday suit if nobody finds it offensive eg naked bike rides etc) and importantly society nor laws prevent anyone from wearing what they choose in public in their free time and when allowed to be out post Covid lockdown for valid reasons.

The fundamental obvious difference is that in some overseas territories the local rules impose strict clothing requirements even if you happen to be visiting and not linked to that religion. You therefore have no freedom to choose otherwise or face severe punishment.

Perhaps extreme religious clothing (fully covered) is the original social distancing ideal? By that I mean be out in public but not be seen/identify hidden) shielded from anyone else? If this is worn with a face mask and eye covering (glasses) then this will be very Covid secure hence the idea behind bio nuclear warfare medical hazmat suits as used in Covid medical care.

Given the Covid induced ongoing race (and extreme religion) intolerances being played out in USA and UK illegal mass gathering protests/riots should we not all accept diversity as a thing here but ask people to observe local laws and sensitivities.

Be Covid smart and cover your mouth as the rest is up to you social distancing or anti social style.

And lol at the PP who keep harping on about dictatorships in the ME

I speak about it because I happen to live in one. So does Muslimah2020 from the sound of it. The practice is most common there, not so much in the rest of the MENA, so it makes sense to reference it.

I don't live in a dictatorship country. I live in a Muslim country that doesn't have rules for what a women should dress like.

thisenglishlife

Don't Arabs only make up 20% of Muslims internationally? Most Muslims are South Asian, East Asian or African.

I think you're right. In the UK, I've only met a few ME ethnic muslims IRL and that was mainly at university or when I used to work near Edgware Road in central London. Muslims are spread all over the world as far as Indonesia & Malaysia.

On one hand I would say everyone has a right to wear what they want. However we know that is not true. If one walk to town naked one would probably be arrested. (ask the naked rambler.) So in reality no we can,t always just wear what we want. So that arquement goes out the window. I would struggle to have a conversation with someone wearing a niqab as I look at the mouth. Which is why when the telly sound is out of sink with the picture it is so infuriating.

@june2007 except wearing the niqab is not illegal, June. Are you suggesting that right be taken away?

No cadent. People say we have a right to wear what we want where we want but that isn,t the case and we are all judged on what we wear.

Everyone has the right to wear what they like. But the niqab is something men don’t choose to wear. Why would that be ?

It’s also not really acceptable in a British context to conceal your identity. Cover your hair or your feet or your neck or whatever. But covering your face is an issue. It conceals who you are - it renders you invisible. And that’s why most of us don’t do it and no men do it. They are allowed to be out and communicating and seen. Niqab wearing women are not. That’s a massive red flag for me.

Your face is crucial to communication and our ability to communicate is limited by wearing any sort of face mask for whatever reason. You can’t read expressions and sounds are muffled.

It’s also uncomfortable and hot.

So yep. Totally barking up the wrong tree there OP. I’ll be getting rid of my mask as soon as I can.

@Binterested

Everyone has the right to wear what they like. But the niqab is something men don’t choose to wear. Why would that be ?

It’s also not really acceptable in a British context to conceal your identity. Cover your hair or your feet or your neck or whatever. But covering your face is an issue. It conceals who you are - it renders you invisible. And that’s why most of us don’t do it and no men do it. They are allowed to be out and communicating and seen. Niqab wearing women are not. That’s a massive red flag for me.

Your face is crucial to communication and our ability to communicate is limited by wearing any sort of face mask for whatever reason. You can’t read expressions and sounds are muffled.

It’s also uncomfortable and hot.

So yep. Totally barking up the wrong tree there OP. I’ll be getting rid of my mask as soon as I can.

Well according to @paastumho it's basic science that women don't look at men, so it can't be sexist.

However we know that is not true. If one walk to town naked one would probably be arrested. (ask the naked rambler.) So in reality no we can,t always just wear what we want. So that arquement goes out the window

If we're going to be analytical, you're not exactly wearing anything when you're naked are you? So you're hardly wearing what you want, you're simply not wearing anything. So that argument doesn't stick. Find another.

Okho about the fact I have to wear a uniform for work is that a good enough analogy?

I don't think the UK should start banning things and we tend not to do that and as long as people can wear shorts in muslim and hassidic jewish areas etc and we can say Muslim clothing is sexist and controls women in an awful way and they can also says women not covered are like dirty sweets with flies all over or whatever then it's all fine - let freedom prevail.

You can be naked in England unless you might cause a breach of the peace so eg a naked swim in rivers as we did with our parents as children is fine as no one is around. The interesting bit about the law is that it is the reaction of others to you that counts which has always struck me as very unfair and wrong.

@WakeAndBake okay. Do you not see the irony in your statement?

Rather than teaching women to dress modestly, dress more provocatively, men can't control themselves etc etc etc... why don't you just not judge those who CHOOSE to wear a Niqab/Face Covering if it makes them happy.

It's funny actually, if anyone else started directing the same comments at the clothes non-Muslim women wear, there would be uproar.

Technically bras were designed by the patriarchy but most women wear one! The hyprocisy is hilarious on this thread (gets popcorn)

Wearing a bra is not going to effect my interactions with other people or hinder identity.

@june2007

Wearing a bra is not going to effect my interactions with other people or hinder identity.

The point of thread is about how we are now ALL wearing mask (some with sunglasses and hat on top) and you don’t hear an uproar that communication Has ceased and that people are failing to understand each other. That’s the point, that people who bring up this argument are people who have a problem with the Niqab more than with than with random people covering their face.

Also you wearing a uniform or someone exposing their genitalia by being naked, including to children, is NOT a good comparison point. You chose a job you knew had a work uniform, so that was your choice? I assume you could walk away and pick a job where you do not have to wear a uniform. If I don’t want to wear a uniform I will apply to jobs who don’t request one otherwise I am consenting to wearing a uniform.

Again, the fact that some women feel women should expose more of their body against their will because women being uncovered is the norm is quite ironic when it’s likely it’s the same ones who bark about the patriarchy and men’s entitlement of women’s body.