I don’t think I believe in “God” anymore

[anonymous1120]

I feel really low today, my trigger was reading an online story about how Madeline’s body might be found in a few days as police think it’s 30 mins from hotel in a well. I’m sorry I stopped reading so details might not be fully accurate. My eldest daughter has just turned 4 and it’s really upset me thinking what Maddie might have gone through in her last moments.

I know some people will respond negatively to me and hence the name change. I’m really struggling to think how can God really exist and let awful and evil things happen all the time. My faith has really been tested over the years and I do not believe in God anymore.

@ ravenmum I think that the idea that atheists are angry with God actually comes from the reality that Christians don’t actually believe that people don’t believe in God, and that they merely think those people have not given themselves to him.

The idea that atheists are angry with God isn’t possible because there isn’t a god to be angry with. Iyswim. But because Christians do believe, they can’t see that.

I’ve had it said to me that “well, if you believe that there are e.g. aliens, then that means that you must believe there is a God.” Err no.

faith can wax and wane over time.

Wise words, I have found that to be the case. Even if you do still believe, that can change as to exactly what you believe. So sad about that beautiful little girl and all our children who suffer at the hands of other humans.

Also for the record my mum is religious and finds great comfort in it. I'm not angry with individual religious people or with a 'god' I don't believe exists.

What does make me angry is the way people like @priya38 speak to atheists in such cruel judgement when the burden of proof doesn't lie with non believers and the religion they claim to follow preaches kindness to fellow man, not nasty words and judgement.

I believe organised religion has allowed a lot of terrible behaviour to take place or be excused but I also recognise the good deeds that have come out of it.

I'm not a wanker just because I'm an atheist and I'm glad my mum has comfort in her beliefs. She's so kind and lovely and non judgemental of anyone who doesn't believe, has no issue with gay people for example (I'm bi), she's funny and thoughtful , she's a thoroughly good person.

Not believing doesn't necessarily mean I am angry, it just means I don't believe.

@ AlternativePerspective I guess that could be part of it - that it is really hard to understand the other perspective. I sometimes think that there are some really good things about believing in deities - the community, social support, moral support - but if I wanted to be part of that, how could I? An omniscient deity would know I was just pretending.

I can't say whether or not I believe in God. I'm on the fence. I do believe there is more to our world than meets the eye.. I think the best thing on the subject I've ever heard is, if there is a God, he put us here to make our own path in life. Its not God who give people cancer or disease... Cancer is in our cells, its always been there. Its a simple part of life.

With all things good, there will be a negative counterpart. Its nature's balance.

That's how I look at it anyway.

I understand OP. Suffering is incredibly difficult to understand and to reconcile with faith. It's the age old question of theodicy.

However, I remain a Christian for many reasons. My experience is that God sustains me in my own life of pain (long term lung diseases which can cause horrific suffering at times, since infancy) - knowing that the God I worship understands because he didn't stand apart and simply look down on us with detachment but became incarnate and suffered the worst of pain and death. I know that this stuff can sound nonsensical - I get that, but it's my experience and the experience of so many billions over the ages that encounter with and relationship with God is not only a sustaining place, a comfort to get through life, but draws us to our utmost purpose and fulfillment in life.

Most of us intrinsically know that suffering and evil is wrong, that these things are not the way things are supposed to be. We are appalled by the suffering of children in particular because we know that it is wrong, it is off, it is an anathema. How do we develop this intrinsic knowledge of good and evil? If we were products of a blind, indifferent universe with no morals then we would surely not be so utterly repelled by what we see as the immorality of suffering. Evolutionary process counts for something of this of course in terms of our will to survive and thus some form of morality within this but does not sufficiently explain our deep seated understanding of the pain of evil and our response to those hurting who have nothing to do with us or our 'tribe'. We understand that suffering is appalling because it is, because there are moral absolutes which govern the way we live. (These absolutes are sometimes dimly expressed in certain societies and more openly in others, and I would argue that much of the modern way of thinking about evil and suffering is founded on principles established by Christianity, with much evidence for this - check out the (agnostic) historian Tom Holland for some excellent work on this.)

Thus the fact that we can recognise good and evil means that we are created for good. The fact that most people lean towards good deeds rather than bad points to a leaning towards how we know things should be. The Christian belief is that one day all things will be restored to how they were supposed to be, but that while we have free choice God cannot interfere with that without being a dictator. If we were created for perfection, with no possibility of going wrong and thus no suffering, we would be pale imitations of humanity in all its glory, robotic beings at the beck and call of a God who doesn't actually care about relationship but only creatures there to do his bidding. Instead Christians believe God created us with intrinsic choice for good or ill, for relationship with the creator or the choice to reject that. It would not be a loving act of creation to form creatures of unthinking servitude.

When we bring a child into the world we do it because we want to form relationship and love that child, hopefully, and encourage them towards fulfilment in life. We do not keep a child chained in away from the world so as not to allow them to make their own bad choices. We have to allow their free choice as free agents, and be there encouraging, loving and teaching. And if they do fall off the rails we are still there, ready to welcome them home and love them. Much as God acts with his creation: allowing freedom, which means evil, yet always there with open arms.

Philosophical stuff aside, yes, I still believe in God, despite Madeleine, despite Covid, despite my daily lived pain, and my experience is that in my daily prayer and life with God I discover inexpressible joy and peace beyond understanding - even when I don't understand. And it doesn't mean I cannot question the evil - the Bible does, all the way through - just look at the Psalms, Job etc. I can question God and yet find utter fulfillment in God at the same time.

I understand, OP, but I encourage you to think wider even than your pain at this outrage and find God sitting in the midst of it weeping about Madeleine too.

Absolutely everything in this world has been imagined into existence by humans...all Gods and all religions included.

@BashStreetKid I can't speak for others, but I don't believe in God simply to get good things. I accept that there's a lot about God that I don't understand. I'm going through a terrible time right now and my faith allows me to accept that things are what they are right now and if I want to make things better I have to take action and God will either help me or not as he sees fit. I can't say if the parents of babies born with horrible conditions feel the same, I wouldn't speak for them.

@itsallgitsandshiggles

God gave man free will,

Man uses that free will to do evil deeds,

God doesn't intervene, because it would mean taking back our free will.

Evil will be judged on judgment day.

Madeline Experienced trauma and true horror, but God, would have been weeping for both his children. One lost to a life of crime and depravity, and one lost as a victim of the aforementioned.

This is a BS argument though isn't it. A lot of the horrors and suffering people face have nothing to do with anyone's freewill.

It's not because of freewill that I suffered the loss of my baby, for example.

It's not because of free will that children die of horrifying diseases.

It's not because of free will that there are people starving to death or unable to access clean water in the 21st century.

God is either omnipotent and can change these things but chooses not to, in which case he isn't benevolent either or he isn't all powerful at all.

Or of course, the third option is that he doesn't exist at all. Which I find much easier to accept.

It's not because of free will that there are people starving to death or unable to access clean water in the 21st century.

I don't try to use the 'free will' paradigm for a nice neat little explanation - it's far more nuanced - but in this case I think we can all see how the free choice of humans have led to these situations: humanity's greed - deforestation, climate change, the inability of global governments to share out wealth - wealth inequality is shocking, and if wealth were spread evenly throughout the world everyone would have clean water, sanitation, enough food. Free choice has led to untold suffering and inequality across the world and we do not do enough to address this. Millions die of malaria each year and yet most of us don't care enough to make changes in our lives.

As for children born with painful diseases, natural disasters etc, the Christian understanding is that the world has fallen under the great weight of the choice towards evil and so nothing is as it should be. This of course does not help the mother of that child, but that mother can still find great treasure in encounter with God within her pain, and so often does. I do not try to explain away these things - it would be ignorant of me to do so and would only result in clichéd poor apologetic. There is mystery in this but for me there is good in the mystery, there is beauty in the mystery, there is peace in the mystery.

I don't generally have to much of a problem with individuals and their faith. I usually do have a problem with a lot of religious organisations (yes, catholic church, I'm definitely looking at you - but not only the catholic church) and the amount of suffering they cause.

When i see beautiful ancient churches and cathedrals i appreciate the intrinsic beauty of them, admire the skill of the architects, stonemasons and engineers who planned and built them. And then i get angry that (the older ones) were built at a time when humans had very little leisure time outside of growing food etc, and no money to make their lives easier but YES! let's build a great big money pit to God. Sod the ill, hungry, poor etc etc. (and yes, some religious organisations do good works, but so do plenty of non-religious ones)

It boils down to: you do your thing and I'll do mine. But bloody hell don't stop me living my life just because your god tells you we must all do X, or not do Y.

OP from what i know of my religious friends, losing faith can be an incredibly stressful and frightening time. I hope you have someone to speak to in RL.

I am so very sorry for your loss, BloodyCat.

OP atheism does make this kind of thing easier to understand. It's not any nicer, but I don't have to try and shoehorn it into some kind of "but god wanted to test the parents" kind of thing.

Humans are just smart animals and some are more dangerous than others.

I do still have faith, and this evil act doesn't change that. I really hope Madeline's parents finally get to find out what happened to her and that this man faces justice. It doesn't destroy my faith because there have been so many other evil acts. Evil acts are committed by men, because God gave us free will, to be able to choose.

I myself am a survivor of childhood SA, as was my DSis. My DB was also abused, though not by my F, he was part of a paedophile network. His life has been completely destroyed and my DSis and I still carry the scars, suffering from complex PTSD.

I don't blame God for this, I know that he was with me through the most traumatic events. I put the blame where it belongs, with my F and members of the evangelical church where we went as children, because they knew what was happening and did nothing to stop it. I don't blame my DM because she didn't know, but I do resent the fact that she was emotionally absent mostly which was why we couldn't tell her.

The church worldwide has a lot to answer for. The RC Church and the C of E have had to face up to the way they let down SA survivors, but free evangelical churches have yet to do so. But at the moment they're still covering up abuse, and tell victims not to report their abuse to the police because if they do so they will bring shame onto the church. A friend of mine had this happen when her DH abused her teenage DD. The pastor also said she was to blame because she hadn't been a good enough wife.

I really understand why some people blame God for evil actions, and why others just stop believing. But the blame belongs to the perpetrators of the crimes and to anyone who covers for them.

I still believe because I know that God brought me through my suffering. I'm not well still but I have a happy life now, with a loving DH and 2 adopted DDs. My DSis also has a loving family life. I've also seen people's lives transformed, after much more horrific abuse than I went through. The charity I work for helps Central Asian women and I've read so many of their stories. Their stories are of appalling abuse, but they're also stories of hope.

I know this doesn't change what happened to Madeline; we've all been hoping that she might be found alive. But sadly what will happen now is that a lot of people will blame her parents for leaving her alone. That would be very unkind at this point in time, as they'll be blaming themselves anyway. I know how much my DM blames herself for what happened when we were children, and it haunts her. For that reason, I'm careful not to say anything that might make her feel worse.

This explains precisely how I feel on the subject OP the backstory was that someone had approached him and said the fact that he'd prayed to God to fix his mum's cataracts and it had worked was proof of Gods existence.

It’s ok to struggle with faith and beliefs. It’s part of your journey through life.
You can still be a spiritual person without believing in god.
Do your own research and reading if you are questioning things.

but that mother can still find great treasure in encounter with God within her pain, and so often does

But this doesn't answer the biggest thing for me.

Is God omnipotent?

If the answer is yes then to me he does have the power to stop suffering. But he doesn't. That to me is not someone/something I will ever find comfort in.

We are supposedly 'Gods children'. If I, as a parent, saw one of my children suffering so immensely and I was supposedly this omnipotent, benevolent, all powerful being, I'd do everything to stop that suffering. Not just allow it to happen but then expect them to just find comfort in me 'walking with them'.

God is either omnipotent or he isn't.

I find it much easier to accept that either he does not exist at all. Or he is not some conscious loving being, but more like a force, like nature. Not a he who loves or cares because that opens up far too many 'whys' for me, but an it that just is.

@bloodycat
You have made a point here

'It's not because of free will that there are people starving to death or unable to access clean water in the 21st century'
But
What if you consider we are made in Gods image? we are meant to change these unfortunate times in the world? God uses humans to do his work?if we all skip along to being evil and cold hearted atheists surely no one will help those in need ?

"God, would have been weeping for both his children" but while any human would have intervened god just brought popcorn.

The Free Will argument doesn't hold up. It was just all the priests could come up with when people started asking awkward questions. The victim never gets to use their Free Will.

Some will tell you that it's ok as victims go directly to heaven, but if that were true then none of this time on earth is essential and everyone could have gone straight to heaven.

Another obscene excuse is that "ok some child suffered horribly, but adults were inspired by it or learned some lesson from it"

Sorry but I believe Gonçalo Amarals version of events. The U.K. police just want to wrap it up. If ever there was a frame up, this is it.

I don’t have much time for religion, only science. But science opens the doors to far greater questions, wonders and mysteries than can be found in any religious book. There are perhaps a trillion stars in our galaxy (the next nearest to us is 4yl away) and a trillion galaxies in our universe. Perhaps there are a trillion universes. Agnosticism always seems a better fit to me than atheism, though I certainly don’t buy into any of the Stories or God’s of the major world world religion other than as symbolic myth and metaphor.

silverstrawberry "we are meant to change these unfortunate times in the world?"

I'm one of those evil and cold hearted atheists, but I'd have intervened and your god just watched.

That is an obscene excuse, LastTrain, I completely agree, and agree with pp as well about some evil the church has done through the ages - it makes me very, very angry. But I look at the good it has done as well and wish for better, for all churches to reflect the original 1st century church which so challenged their society in their service to the poor and the oppressed.

God didn't buy popcorn. God sent Jesus to take all of this utter crap, all of this evil on himself, all of the wrong and the mess we make as humans and die and resurrect so conquering over all that evil and wrong and pain which points us towards the way things should and will be. God cared enough to live it, and that's what so many people find over and over again, the resonance and power of a God who doesn't stand aside but gets right into the dust as well.

[quote silverstrawberry]@bloodycat
You have made a point here

'It's not because of free will that there are people starving to death or unable to access clean water in the 21st century'
But
What if you consider we are made in Gods image? we are meant to change these unfortunate times in the world? God uses humans to do his work?if we all skip along to being evil and cold hearted atheists surely no one will help those in need ?
[/quote]
Why does God need to use humans to do his work if he's an all powerful, omnipotent being? Genuine question because I hate the omnipotent shit. Is he or isn't he? And if he is, why not use some of that to stop suffering for people who did not choose their suffering?

My point about freewill has been stated above, victims cannot exercise their freewill. It's not the freewill of starving children in Africa, dying of malaria.

We should all do more, yes. Precisely because there is no God so it is down to us (or if there is one, he clearly doesn't give a toss).

Why are atheists evil and cold hearted?