PIP Decision Maker AMA

[Owmyback]

What do you want to know

Travellor

Timing was definitely an issue, when I was there we were expected to see 5 a day. Before I joined they went through a period of doing 6 a day.

In a 7.5 hour day that would mean 90 minutes per person. In that they expected you to allocate 2 minutes per piece of evidence they had sent in, and I had once had someone send in 300 peices of evidence including a written diary. They basically averaged it out and said it should be 15 minutes of reading evidence before the assessment. They expected an assessment to last 45 mins to an hour, which rarely went to plan. Then they expected 15 minutes to 30 minutes to write it up.

I really think its important to remember it isnt just the assessor making those statements, so many reports get bounced back as auditors notice inconsistencies.

For example an assessor could send off a report that says

"This person can not independently prepare a meal as they have poor grip and can not lift heavy pans due to their arthritis, their physical assessment showed weakness in their arms and they take strong analgesia to manage the pain associated"

An auditor or manager response will be,

"This is not probable as they can drive which shows they can grip a wheel and they also work 6 hours a week in a shop where it is likely they are expected to lift and move items, therefore likely they can prepare food, please change this to manages independently"

This happens a LOT, I had a lot of tantrums over being made to change my assessment scores and often refused so a senior member of staff would just do it for me, I used to shudder thinking about the faces of the claimants receiving those reports.

Or the appeal experts reading them

"This is not probable as they can drive which shows they can grip a wheel and they also work 6 hours a week in a shop where it is likely they are expected to lift and move items, therefore likely they can prepare food, please change this to manages independently"

It is very interesting to see hear how the system works. It explains some of the stock statements that you see and the decision makers logic (or departmental instruction) behing them, but emphasises the need for claimnats to be far more detailed in what they submit.

Would I be correct in thinking that the expectation is that a lot (most) of the report is typed up during the assessment? I've seen cases where close observation of the client during our chat shows up issues that the HCP (too busy typing?) has missed, the classic one was the client who couldn't use one hand; written up as good grip as she rests it on her handbag.
Where you expected to be touch typists?

I lost points because the assessor saw me push my glasses up to the bridge of my nose. My assessor never looked at me once during the assessment, she typed like a mad woman, fired the next question before I had finished answering the previous one.

My assessor never looked at me once during the assessment, she typed like a mad woman, fired the next question before I had finished answering the previous one.
Yes I saw this happen with the physiotherapist from hell assessing my brain injured relative.
She did pause to laugh at my relative's failed suicide attempt after making her describe it in detail.
Then she laughed again, and asked her, " are you suicidal now?".

Are you told to lie? Contradict and deliberately write false information?

Are you given a number you have to stick too and cannot approve anyone once you reach the number?

Do you feel pleased with yourself when you turn someone down who cannot work and has medical evidence to prove it yet cannot claim benefits because of your decision?!!

I think you must be a really cruel heartless person to work there.

The assessment isnt written up when the claimant is in the room. So theres two bits to the form, one which I assume doesn't get shown to the claimant ( but I'm not sure)where it is basically your notes, so you write down everything you have asked and their response in the notes box. When they leave that's when you fill in the descriptor boxes and refer back to your notes and the other sections you have filled in (e.g past medical history, MSE and medications)

I never recall being asked before starting about my typing skills but I don't know how you would manage if you weren't a touch typer. I know a lot of the 'old school' assessors did a lot of copy and pasting and templates however this was not allowed and they were frequently told not to, but I think the slower typists saw it as the only way to get them done in such a short amount of time.

Just before I left I was under review for over generous scoring so I had a senior member of staff sat in the room with me for all my assessments, my interpretation of struggling to stand up from a chair and looking in pain and her interpretation were very very different. When the person had left the room I'd often think that's an obvious one to score, then she would say things like "did you see how she was resting her head on her arm? Or how easily she picked her phone off the table? All things that I never noticed as I was too busy being very aware of how much in distress and pain the person sounded and these were all things I was encouraged to use not to score.

My partners assessor was obviously a good typist as everything was typed as he went through the form. I've no way of knowing if this was notes or doing the drop downs and supporting evidence.

I can say that the assessment was very fair, and in fact scored points for an aid that we hadn't considered ( out toilet is narrow so using the walls to assist sitting/standing was counted as an aid).

We got a copy of the HCP report (phoned up to ask for copy) and the DM letter followed it closely. The initial award was for 6 years so my partner was very happy.

How can you live with yourself?

The system is completely set up to get people off benefits. Assessors are not allowed off probation unless they decline enough claimants.

You're made to sign the official secrets act so you can't discuss what goes on at work, because it's so immoral - what drives you to repeat this day in day out?

feelingfragile

Again I'm not supporting the pip process just dispelling a couple of mistruths.

You arent made to sign any kind of secrets act.

The rules of passing probation is that you have to get 5 consecutive a1 grade assessments, so this means 5 assessments where you haven't been made to change anything as the auditors agree with you. How many people you decline has nothing to do with the probation.

While there is a lot wrong with the process, I do think there needs to be some kind of system in place other than just a gp letter or a diagnosis confirmation, as I did get many people taking the mick.

Thank you Echo - I think it's an absolute travesty that the adult services support worker basically said nah, nothing that I can do to help, can't you deal with it?!

I don't mind doing it and I'm glad to help but I am incensed by the bureaucracy and outright refusal of the DWP and local authority to liaise between departments.

The number of times I've been told 'oh no, that's not my job/department' which results in HOURS spent on the phone trying to speak to different people.

There's no wonder a vulnerable person with learning disabilities cannot navigate this stupid bloody system. I don't have any of these challenges and I've still found it tough going!

When I think how badly this persons life has been affected and the vulnerable and downright dangerous situations they have found themselves in over the past two years, largely caused by the failed PIP claim. The DWP and powers that be should be ashamed of themselves. How many other people have suffered too? Judging by this thread alone, a huge number.

The fact that it took 6 weeks for a form to arrive? Disgraceful. They clearly make it as difficult as possible don't they? No doubt they will start the claim from the date they receive the form back from me too, not the date the initial claim was made resulting in 8 or so weeks of lost money.

Why can they still not combine the info for ESA and PIP?

@Blahblooblah

My husband worked as an assessor for two months. He was made to sign the official secrets act, there are lots of things I could tell you that he experienced. He had to speak to me or he'd have had a breakdown because the unethical nature of the decision making and awful behaviour of the senior staff. I can't share it on here but the party line is absolutely untrue.

As a nurse, he trained to help people, not break them.

He left.

@Travellor I think you're on the wrong thread

I find the term ‘decision maker’ quite odd.

It infers a lot of power, and it’s clear that the people employed in this position don’t have to be very bright. Two weeks training?

It reminds me a bit of the way you currently have a lot of ‘not very bright’ people who are allowed to shout at other people in shops or whatever, due to the coronavirus.

I am almost 50. I’m pretty bright, I have a masters degree. I am currently being patronised left right and centre by people who are frankly quite dim. A young man of approximately 20 years shouted at me in Sainsbury’s last week for picking up and putting back some shampoo.

I rather think they enjoy wielding power, since they have little opportunity to access truly powerful positions in real life, owing to limited intellect and poor qualifications.

[quote louise5754]@Travellor I think you're on the wrong thread [/quote]
Sorry, you've lost me.

My interest in this thread is that, as someone who helps people to submit PIP claims and MR's, an opportunity to learn parts of what goes on in the decision process is very useful. I'm taking away a couple of points that may be helpful in giving advice to future clients.

If you are objecting to my pointing out that the system does work for some claimants, there is nothing to say.

feelingfragile

We didn't sign anything when I was there like that and neither did my colleagues. However non of us spoke about our job to people due to embarrassment anyway.

I have some awful tales too. I was there for 11 months, I was desperate to leave after one month but there were no other jobs at the time and had a mortgage to pay. We had If I remember rightly a 70% turnover in staff and I remember once they took on 6 new members of staff and not one single one of those lasted longer than a month. They are constantly recruiting for a reason.

@Blahblooblah

So sorry that you had a horrible experience too.

From what he described, the people who stayed there were vile, it seems to me that you'd have to be to be OK with it.

Not from him, from a friend who's husband has a spinal deformity. During his assessment they insisted that he should lie flat on the bed, when he pointed out that he can't they tried to physically push him into a straight position and only when they failed would they believe him.

Btw does anyone now how long it takes from appealing the MR to the tribunal. Silly question to ask at the minute I guess.

feelingfragile

There were definitely a different type of person to stay in the job. Wouldn't necessarily call them vile but they were able to become very robot like and not get emotionally involved. But often the appeal of staying was not wanting to go back to shifts or hands on work.

There was only one vile person I worked with who would brag about failing people and act as if she was giving out her own money...however she actually got in trouble for underscoring eventually.

I never witnessed anyone getting treated poorly in assessments, my negative experiences came more from the pressures of management and the tinkering of scores...however we were once told that are office held one of the records for having the least complaints so that might be something to do with that!

Prior to lockdown, my CAB were quoting 9 months for a Tribunal hearing (East of England). No idea what current figure is.

@CountessFrog

A decision maker is employed by DWP and is not an assessor. I think the two have become confused in this thread.

A person is assessed by someone who works for ATOS or Capita. That person will have some qualifications, a nurse, physio etc and 2 weeks training on the system.

Their report is then sent to DWP for the decision maker to decide the claim. I agree that they have a lot of power over a claimant.

For anyone dealing with claims, I recommend the Benefits And Work website which sets out the assumptions they make with each question and why you generally need to answer "no, because" when asked if you can do something - because if you cannot do it safely, repeatedly, reliably, to acceptable standard and in a reasonable time it does not count. But they have to interpret your answer as meeting all those unless you tell them otherwise.

So my PIP responses (on separate sheets) end up being about 20,000 words demolishing every assumption (copy and paste for each question as needed).

My assessor reports have ended up just copying parts of what I've said. I've had 2 PIP assessments now, each over two hours , but I went with a Dr (not a medical one but I didn't mention that), and the assessors were very grateful to have the words they needed.

Neither of them had seen any supporting evidence, just my form. Got the award I should, both times, but that is thanks to me being a civil servant and knowing how to work the system.

And being politely arsy when refusing to do anything medically inadvisable, and getting DH to phone up repeatedly, and getting my MP involved when I was expected to travel 100 miles to a centre (I live in London).

The system is not fit for any humane purpose, only for purporting to support 'the disabled' while actually aiming to cut costs at all costs.

Question for anyone in DWP: why does it take so long for PIP2 forms to be put in the post which then takes 3 weeks to arrive from Belfast, and why in this era of digital by default is there still no electronic version of the form available?

@louise5754

Btw does anyone now how long it takes from appealing the MR to the tribunal. Silly question to ask at the minute I guess.

Depends where you are. My DDs took 11 months from MR to appeal, then a further 10 weeks while the DWP considered appealing the appeal