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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

WTAF - Far right protests

999 replies

Poppi89 · 12/06/2020 11:18

I have just heard on the radio that far-right protesters will be out tomorrow in response to the BLM protesters. People are being urged not to be out in support of BLM tomorrow due to the aggressive nature of the far-right group and BLM protests are being cancelled because of them.

I am outraged by this. The BLM protesters are asking for people to not be killed due to the colour of their skin. They have rightly or wrongly made a decision to put themselves at risk of COVID-19 to help spread this message - a lot of people have called them idiots etc for doing this.

The far-right protests are now also protesting in large groups (but not in response to a murder) and are 'known' for being aggressive. How is this acceptable?

I would like to hear from anyone who is planning to join/agree with these far-right protests and their reasons why?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Livelovebehappy · 13/06/2020 10:44

devisive

BaileysforBreakfast · 13/06/2020 10:50

divisive

BaileysforBreakfast · 13/06/2020 10:57

the current situation of people dictating on what they want to happen, or else they will be defaced or torn down
More hyperbole. In respect of the Colson statue - let's use that as an example, as that was the one torn down - locals had petitioned for its removal for a long time. I do not agree with statues being town down (see above) but the people's requests were clearly ignored.
Personally, I think it's a very good thing that the action of those protestors - while I don't agree with their actions - has started a debate on who we should be memorialising, and whether statues that were alright at the time they were erected can now be deemed offensive. Why not have a national conversation about that?

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 13/06/2020 11:01

I think the Churchill statue is symbolic of the defeat of Naziism, rather than about Churchill personally. I don't think anyone holds him up to be a wonderful person. But he did an important thing and the statue represents the sacrifices of the time in order to achieve that. Obviously veterans do feel strongly about it if they are willing to put themselves at risk to defend it.

Raella50 · 13/06/2020 11:19

I think people who want to silence those who don’t agree with them are a problem in a democracy.

TheVoiceOfReasonableness · 13/06/2020 11:20

Here’s my take. I’m white but not of British origin.

I recognise that white privilege exists and that it doesn’t mean I’m privileged. It means I have the privilege of not being judged for my skin colour.

I also recognise that it is the job of white people to listen to black people’s experiences of racism rather than tell them what is racist and what is not.

I recognise that the phrase “Black Lives Matter” is important in the sense that (as stated here before) if a person’s house was on fire and the occupier asked for help, a response of “but all houses matter” would not be very helpful in the circumstances.

But let’s just take a look at what is going on now- the wrecking of monuments and memorials, the censorship of comedy and media, the aims of BLM (if you read them) are effectively to smash the British state.

History is not black and white.

There is probably not a single historical figure who, if put to scrutiny, would measure up to “Woke” values.

Dr Martin Luther King was a Baptist preacher. If you asked him about gay marriage, what do you think he would have said? Ditto Mother Theresa, a Roman Catholic nun.

Mahatma Gandhi is on record with some interesting views of women and Africans that would horrify the Woke.

The Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) had a wife whom he married at 6 and consummated the marriage when she reached puberty at 9. This may have been normal then but how would 21st century values feel about this?

Horatian Nelson is a national hero but his navy guarded the shipping routes to enable
the British slave trade.

Oliver Cromwell who is often lauded as a Parliamentarian became a dictator who massacred the Irish and banned freedom of religious thought and practice.

Let us also look at ourselves.

Can anyone here honestly say that at no point in our lives we have ever:

Made a comment that was either sexist, racist, xenophobic, homophobic, disablist, fat-shaming or cruel, even in jest?

Laughed at any of the above?

If not, then by Woke standards, we’re all just as bad and complicit.

But are we not all capable of learning?

Churchill is castigated as a racist as bad as Hitler, and it is true that in his early life he held some racist views, but are we not all capable of learning and changing our views? Churchill certainly did.

In his later years he spoke out against notions of racial purity and superiority. He was the one who spoke out against Hitler’s genocidal intentions when most of the British public wanted to appease Hitler.

Without Churchill’s leadership the war would have been lost.

Without the contribution of troops of the then British Empire, which Churchill also acknowledged at the time, the War would have been harder to win.

Why are so many of the former British Empire still members of the Commonwealth? Because they recognise that the history of the British Empire was not black and white. It was at times a force for good and progress while being founded on roots of slavery, conquest and oppression. It evolved.

One wonders how many BLM protesters who are smashing up the Cenotaph know their own family histories? How many of them had Grandfathers, Great Grandfathers or Great Great Grandfathers, who fought for the British cause in both World Wars? Are
they not dishonouring their own histories?

Does any historical figure stand up to 21st century Woke values?

If not, we must tear down each and every single statue of every person who has ever been commemorated.

Perhaps we need to look at the WHOLE person, the sum of their actions including how they changed and what they learned, and what they achieved.

If we do that, it is possible for us to once again regard Dr Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson and, yes, Sir Winston Churchill as heroes.

Sandybval · 13/06/2020 11:22

Great post thevoice.

Harpingon · 13/06/2020 11:23

The cenotaph is a war memorial. War memorials are basically graves with the names of men and women who died in war and no bodies could be brought home, so their families had somewhere to lay flowers and remember them.
Desecrating graves is beyond disgusting and the only reason to do it is to provoke a reaction.

BaileysforBreakfast · 13/06/2020 11:23

I think the Churchill statue is symbolic of the defeat of Naziism, rather than about Churchill personally
Well, isn't that the thing about statues etc? We ascribe our own meaning to them in terms of what they represent. I was alive at the time of Churchill's funeral - albeit extremely young - and remember the national outpouring of grief. There's no doubt about the reverence in which he was held by some. However, I think it's important to remember how two-dimensionally he has been presented to us as a historical figure. Nearly fifty years later, I saw a TV documentary which highlighted his less savoury aspects, including his well-documented feelings about people of Jewish, African and Indian descent. To be honest, it shocked me and showed me how one-dimensionally our nation's story is told. Despite the very thorough documentatary evidence of his views and actions, these things were not talked about. Instead, he was presented to us as a 'hero' plain and simple. Without information, we don't question these things. I know I'm in danger of repeating myself, but if the tearing down of Colson's statue gave people pause for thought, it has done some good. Sadly, judging by the black and white replies on here, I think a lot of people still don't want to think about our history if it doesn't fit their 'land of hope and glory' image.

BaileysforBreakfast · 13/06/2020 11:25

TheVoiceofReasonableness
Your use of the word 'woke' says everything we need to know.
"smashing up the Cenotaph". Hyperbole at its most extreme.

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 13/06/2020 11:27

Why is it right for one group to protest and not another.

By definition not everyone will agree with protestors otherwise there would be nothing to protest against would there.

As I’ve said on previous posts the actions of some of the protestors (many of whom I suspect are habitual trouble makers rather than people actually supportive of Anti racism) Has gone too far, it’s somewhat inevitable those with counter opinions wouldn’t stay at home.unfortunately the very valid message has been drowned out by violence, illegal activity and hysteria

Alsohuman · 13/06/2020 11:28

I thought it was very measured and thoughtful @TheVoiceOfReasonableness.

Xenia · 13/06/2020 11:34

People should obey the law except in extreme circumstances eg I was not that keen that most Germans obeyed the law and as a result 6m people died on religious and race etc grounds and my parents got bombs dropped on them in the UK. However we and particularly Churchill stood up to that racism and the UK is justly proud that with the help of another great nation, the USA, we defeated the Germans.

however tearing down a statue to Churchill or a black leader or anyone else (most of these statues are of men of course which is another issue entirely - people seem to be much more concerned about racism than sexism in the UK).... is against the law. We shoud not except in extreme cases pick those laws we like and not follow others. My vegan son is very against meat farming etc but he does not go around like the Animal liberation lot did in the 1970s breaking and entering into farms.

garino · 13/06/2020 11:39

Nearly fifty years later, I saw a TV documentary which highlighted his less savoury aspects, including his well-documented feelings about people of Jewish, African and Indian descent.

That's the case with most historical figures though. No human beings are perfect. As a Jew, I'm pleased that an imperfect Churchill was prepared to fight the Nazis as me and my family wouldn't exist otherwise. It's really offensive to see people comparing Churchill to Hitler and I actually wonder what the people who think Churchill was worse/the same as Hitler think about the holocaust.

TheVoiceOfReasonableness · 13/06/2020 11:40

@BaileysforBreakfast

Woke is a term used by people who consider themselves Woke. It is not used as an insult.

Smashing up the Cenotaph is precisely what some of the protesters were trying to do.

As for “tells us everything we need to know”, why not debate the points I raised and show me how I’m wrong?

Or is this another topic that is beyond debate?

BaileysforBreakfast · 13/06/2020 11:41

I actually wonder what the people who think Churchill was worse/the same as Hitler think about the holocaust.
I wouldn't have said that's a commonly-held view, so maybe find some of those people and ask them?

Alex50 · 13/06/2020 11:45

What do you think the UK would be like today if Hitler had won the war?

Bluemoooon · 13/06/2020 11:46

@TheVoiceOfReasonableness
Great post. Explained a lot of what I have been trying to say.
I am in my 60s and OMG everyone was racist when I was young (50s). I don't really know why. I spose you felt superior or perhaps a bit nervous of foreigners as there'd been virtually none before, But I lived in the UK countryside, no black people, no asian people, but there were former prisoners of war around and refugees from eastern Europe. But any incomers were not treated kindly. It was probably different in the cities. The young person's 'woke' attitude now really annoys me because if they'd had my childhood they'd have turned out the same. I now know it was ridiculously wrong and work on not being racist but banging on about Churchill in the past - just nonsense. It applied to everyone then, that was British society. And most likely the rest of western society too (Germany on a different scale though). Much hatred between Chinese and Japanese which had to be controlled in the Olympics. Hindus /Muslims. I could go on.

emilybrontescorsett · 13/06/2020 11:48

Thevoice excellent post.

NearlyGranny · 13/06/2020 11:48

Anyone inspired to come out and demonstrate against BLM, rather than to protect monuments etc, is by definition expressing their belief that black lives really don't matter, surely?

We know those people exist; Jo Cox was murdered by one.

emilybrontescorsett · 13/06/2020 11:51

I would also add, if you care to look hard enough you will find the vast majority of people have faults. We won't be left with many people to listen to/read/watch etc if we disregard everyone who has said/written/sang/acted etc ideas listed by thevouceofreason.

Sandybval · 13/06/2020 11:51

Anyone inspired to come out and demonstrate against BLM, rather than to protect monuments etc, is by definition expressing their belief that black lives really don't matter, surely

Nope, maybe read about why the veterans etc are going.

Alsohuman · 13/06/2020 11:53

I wouldn't have said that's a commonly-held view, so maybe find some of those people and ask them?

Someone did ask the person who graffitied Churchill’s statue. Her response was as follows:

I tagged up the statue of Churchill because he's a confirmed racist. He fought the Nazis to protect the Commonwealth from invasion - he didn't do it for black people or for people of colour or for people of anything. He did it sheerly for colonialism. People will be angry - but I'm angry that for many years we have been oppressed.

The history of WW2 and the holocaust seems to have completely passed her by. Perhaps someone could point out to her what oppression would be like if Churchill hadn’t bothered.

BaileysforBreakfast · 13/06/2020 11:54

Smashing up the Cenotaph is precisely what some of the protesters were trying to do.
Can you link? I would have thought people 'smashing up the cenotaph' would have been widely reported by respected news sources. By 'smashing up', I'm assuming you mean sledghammers, pick-axes, etc. and aren't referring to a can of spray paint in the hands of a single moron?

The only story I could find about a 'smashed up cenotaph' was one about the wall of a cenotaph being damaged in Walsall and the perpetrator/s have not been identified according to news sources.

FWIW I don't think anyone on this thread has defended the vandalism - let alone the 'smashing up' - of any war memorial.

MadameMarie · 13/06/2020 11:56

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Can you imagine how awful it must be for veterans, 75 years after D day to see the statue of Churchill boxed up for its own safety and the police unwilling or unable to properly defend it? People are waking up to the fact that opposition to left wing anarchists and thugs does not equal far right supporters.
The left are destroying themselves again with their hatred of this country. These despicable actions sets the seeds for their election defeats with patriotic Brits.
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