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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are women allowed to be offended by Drag/ women face now then?

427 replies

Chosennone · 12/06/2020 11:11

Things are changing. Strange times. Midst Pandemic. Horrific events in the USA. people are 'waking' up to oppression and inappropriateness within comedy.
If it is no longer seen as acceptable to wear any kind of black costume, seen in LB, LOG, Ant & Dec, surely it is time that a sensible debate could be had on Drag. Is it acceptable? Is it not a mockery of female features for comedy in the same way original blackface was?
If not, why not?

OP posts:
Icantreachthepretzels · 12/06/2020 12:54

Does this mean panto is dead?

The rule should be - as long as the principal boy is a girl then you can have a pantomime dame. However if the principal boy is 'Scott from Emmerdale' (don't watch Emmerdale - have no idea if there are any current or past characters specifically named Scott) then the role of pantomime dame must be given to a woman.

And also the jokes about the pantomime dame should not be misogynistic, or making fun of her because she dares to be an older and unattractive woman in public (the horror!)

There shouldn't be anything inherently offensive about a man dressing up as a woman - the problem is when it is done with the sole aim to mock and belittle women then it is misogynistic. I don't find Matt Lucas as Margery Dawes offensive, as the joke is she is horrible to fat people. I do find Matt Lucas dressed up as Bubbles Devere offensive because the joke is she is physically disgusting.
Some like it Hot isn't offensive, Nuns on the Run isn't offensive, Rupert Everett in St. Trinians and John Travolta in Hairspray aren't offensive - because the joke isn't on women and isn't about how disgusting they are. The same cannot be said for too many drag acts.

I suspect the reason LB thought they could get away with black face was because they were playing characters who happened to be black but the joke wasn't their blackness it was some horrendous characteristic linked to their personality which was the same for all the other characters. It was trying to show not everyone in Britain was white.
People think it was offensive anyway and fair enough - not my place to say otherwise. But if I had to guess what their rationale at the time was I would guess that they wanted to show diversity and not make an all white show and assumed it was OK to dress up as ethnic minorities as long as the joke wasn't that they were ethnic minorities, they were the same as all the other characters just incidentally BAME. (Athough I've never seen a Ting Tong sketch - that might be horrendously racist)

When it comes to men dressing up as women I would prefer to see some nuance in the discussion rather than a blanket ban. What the purpose behind it is, who is being laughed at. Because it's the content of the act that should be considered offensive or not, not that an actor is pretending to be someone they're not - even a cross sex someone. Unfortunately I think this means Mrs. Brown's Boys would not come under any kind of drag ban.

Drag however - mostly comes under deeply offensive. But that doesn't mean Drag has to be offensive. They can carry on expressing themselves however they like as long as they get rid of the 'fishy' 'bitchy' stuff and recognise that is problematic. They don't get a pass on that because it's a part of their culture. But if they can get rid of the woman hating aspects of drag then it wouldn't be offensive. Though I don't know enough about drag to know if - once the misogyny is removed - if there is anything left to perform... though someone up thread mentioned Lily Savage, it's a long time since I've seen any Lily Savage but I don't remember 'her' being offensive or misogynistic. So it can be done.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/06/2020 12:54

Regardless of its Shakesperian/Pantomime past the answer these days is no!

Women are not allowed to be offended by drag

  1. It is a free form of expression - that only men can do
  2. It is legal, doesn't hurt, is only a bit of fun - had by men
  3. It doesn't really depict real women, just the stereotype - as sexually dreamed up by men
  4. It's a joke, funny, a good giggle - if you don't mind having your biological/psychological/sociological characteristics lampooned by men for men
  5. Like other things that only men can do (like being a transwoman) we women have no say about it at all - cos we are not men

Any woman who tries to explain why will be looked askance at - oh the hysteria, the lack of sense of humour, you uptight, fish fannied, frigid, unfunny, homophobic, transphobic, funphobic stuck up cunt!

Any woman who is still of a mind to think it is all Ru Paul and fun should have a look at some of the non television friendly acts that are the vast majority - maybe Drag Queen Story Hour is a good palce to start... any number of videos, media pieces on it

bintang · 12/06/2020 12:59

We were talking about current events last night and DH called it "makeup-face". Drag is offensive often. An individual man dressed as a woman isn't offensive- I think people can wear whatever they want. But taking on a persona to lampoon a group of people is a different matter.

ConkerGame · 12/06/2020 13:01

@LightenUpSummer your post has really struck a chord with me. When I was 11-13 I could see that puberty was about to start and I fought against it as hard as I could but wasn’t too sure why. I ended up wearing a type of binding to stop my boobs from showing, even though they weren’t big, as I could tell that as soon as I started showing signs of being a “woman” rather than a girl, all bets would be off.

I eventually stopped around 14 when everyone in my year was going through it and it was more odd not to have boobs, but sadly I had been right - I started to get comments on my body, my clothes, my behaviour from everyone (In particular men) and it was horrible.

TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 12/06/2020 13:01

I hate it too. I have only been to one panto in 10 years and even the Widow Twanky character in that made me cringe.

Isn't it interesting though how (not necesarily in this thread, but in this discussion more broadly), women talking about how they feel about this risk being labelled homophobic towards gay men. Our feelings about this matter don't matter. Actually, it's the fact that our feelings and our opposition to drag might potentially discriminate against a group of men that's deemed more important than anything else.

littlejalapeno · 12/06/2020 13:04

No YABU

Drag is mocking gender stereotypes. Please don’t conflate it with the trans debate going on at the moment. Or lump the TRAs who fetishise themselves as women in with artist and performers.

It’s burlesque... meaning to laugh or to mock.

I mean I cannot stand Mrs browns boys, I just don’t get it. But I’ve been to many a drag show done well and it’s entertaining, intelligent, empathetic and funny. Women’s re not the butt of the joke, quite often it’s partriachy and gender roles that are. Yes it can also be sexy and played up for sex appeal, but often that also leads to people questioning what is sexy and why than being down on women for having gender expectations thrust on them.

This is not a battle to pick right now. There are things to be angry about, but not this.

Superfoodie123 · 12/06/2020 13:06

I also find it gross

RedTravellingSocks · 12/06/2020 13:07

This is not a battle to pick right now. There are things to be angry about, but not this

Shut up and sit down, ladies.

MarshaBradyo · 12/06/2020 13:08

This is not a battle to pick right now. There are things to be angry about, but not this

I couldn’t disagree more. Let’s talk about it whilst the comparable is being talked about. It will help people get it.

Spidey66 · 12/06/2020 13:08

What's LOG?

PheasantPlucker1 · 12/06/2020 13:08

littleJalepeno you may want to read the full thread.

The conversation moved on to discuss statistics such as how 10 women are raped every hour.

Your comment that womens rights arent important at the moment sound horrific in context.

BigGee · 12/06/2020 13:11

This is not a battle to pick right now. There are things to be angry about, but not this

Gee thanks. I'm so glad you came along to correct my wrong-think. Now DFOD.

SerenDippitty · 12/06/2020 13:12

I did and do find Dame Edna funny. S/he took the piss out of men and women. She was such a wonderful creation I couldn’t think of her as a drag act. She was a pisstake of modern celebrity.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/06/2020 13:12

This is not a battle to pick right now. There are things to be angry about, but not this

Another shout of sit down and shut up you thoughtless female!

Let us not count the acts of violence, the rapes, deaths.... because female

AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter · 12/06/2020 13:12

this is not a battle to pick right now. There are things to be angry about, but not this

Bollocks. Utter rubbish.

Rainbowchampagne · 12/06/2020 13:13

I think @Icantreachthepretzels has nailed it for me

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 12/06/2020 13:15

@WrongKindOfFace

No, women are not allowed to offended by anything.
@WrongKindOfFace is right.
RedTravellingSocks · 12/06/2020 13:15

I can't stand burlesque either, whilst we're on it.

You don't get to tell women what they should and shouldn't get angry about littleJalepeno

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/06/2020 13:15

Drag is mocking gender stereotypes. Please don’t conflate it with the trans debate going on at the moment. Or lump the TRAs who fetishise themselves as women in with artist and performers. You haven't seen many modern day drag acts have you?

Not on the telly, not the public access version. The nightclub version! It's a totally different thing and is extremely anti women in tone, aggressively so!

bintang · 12/06/2020 13:15

@Spidey66 LoG is League of Gentlemen

PintOfGin · 12/06/2020 13:18

Why can't we be angry about this now? Why can't I be angry about ALL of these issues? Me being angry about this doesn't make me less angry about other issues so why do I have to just pick one - ridiculous!

EmeliaLily · 12/06/2020 13:18

I don't see why you would get offended by that at all

waltzingparrot · 12/06/2020 13:18

Yes, it's equally as unacceptable as blackface and needs to be consigned to history too.

ShouldWeChangeTheBulb · 12/06/2020 13:19

I don’t think that most drag mocks women. Some panto style female impersonating definitely does but good drag these days is more about celebrating the femininity of the men who were ridiculed for being too ‘girly’. I understand why some find it offensive though.

Bertucci · 12/06/2020 13:20

A very good point.

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