Are women allowed to be offended by Drag/ women face now then?

[Chosennone]

Things are changing. Strange times. Midst Pandemic. Horrific events in the USA. people are 'waking' up to oppression and inappropriateness within comedy.
If it is no longer seen as acceptable to wear any kind of black costume, seen in LB, LOG, Ant & Dec, surely it is time that a sensible debate could be had on Drag. Is it acceptable? Is it not a mockery of female features for comedy in the same way original blackface was?
If not, why not?

If I call French and Saunders used to dress up as men on a number of occasions in their series.

I used to enjoy classic drag - Torch Song queens, that sort of thing. I never found Lilly Savage offensive (not in that way, anyway!) partly because he picks fun at the men as much as women. I feel that 'classic drag' was mostly performed as a separate entity to imitating women, even when the performers were self-styled 'female impersonators'. It's been a part of male gay culture (come to think of it, there's an established lesbian drag scene too, though strangely one doesn't hear of it much) One of my favourite 80's films is Torchsong Trilogy.

Now, though ... it's pretty vile. It seems to be performed from a position of contempt for women and amplifies gender stereotypes. All the crap they do to themselves is, implicitly, what we women should be doing to ourselves to make ourselves more womanly. And the 'fishy' stuff is appalling.

Ever since the statues started toppling and the tv streaming services started purging, I've been wondering - so the BBC bombarded us with adverts and trailers for RuPaul's bloody Drag Race ad nauseam a few months back. How on earth does that square with the current attitudes towards respecting people of colour?

The problem is, if any of us dare to voice these sentiments, we'll get accused of trying to hijack the BLM movement, of being homophobic/transphobic, of 'whataboutery' (I suppose it is whataboutery!). I just don't have the fecking energy any more.

It is demeaning, insulting and embraced by male fetishists. Says enough.

And whoever thinks this is good stuff to expose kids to, needs to give their heads a wobble.

I don’t think it is on a par with blackface but yes, drag/woman face should not be acceptable any more. If women are offended by it, it is offensive. I’d like to see Mrs Brown’s Boys taken off the BBC. Mostly because it’s not funny. But also, it is womanface.

I'm going to go against the grain here. I don't think modern Drag is a mockery of women at all. I think it gives queer folk a chance to express who they really want to be.

However, old school drag queens that you used to see in a pub on a Saturday night were very inappropriate.

I hate drag. Always did. I find it sinister. The men are always so vicious and play to the very worst stereotypes of being a 'woman'. It's very much done for their own egos and fetishes. There's a certain shock and horror being female to watch your sex appropriated for 'fun' when it's anything but.

But as a woman if you complain you're told you're unable to 'take a joke'.

I understand JK Rowlings worry about a small number of men who will 'identify' as a woman and then have the legal right to walk into changing rooms and various other places and abuse women and girls. We know that the internet is plastered with rape porn and child rape porn. Nowt there's nothing to stop these rapist and abusers from using this loophole to gain access to the entire population of girls and women.

Yes trans have rights. But don't women and girls have a right to live their lives safely without the threat of rape and abuse when they go into a changing room.

@ThatLockdownLyfe

Trying to work out what the equivalent would be.

Women dressing up as men.

What would they wear for the hyper stereotyped costumes? Business suits? Cut off jean shorts? Fat suits? Muscle suits? Fake armpit hair?

What would the jokes be about? Beating up other men? Cars? Call of Duty? Inability to see dirty plates? Just constant penis jokes?

I'm lost when I try to work it out. Why doesn't reverse drag exist? And if it did what would it be like?

Somehow it's only ok in one direction. True of so many things in life.

Drag Kings. Worked some gigs with them.

It's all about waving around fake cocks, fake beards and a lot of tape to bind them - the most successful ones are tall, very, very thin and mime to a backing track.

One got very upset performing in the US when somebody pointed out that the persona they had adopted was racist (Cholo) as at least they weren't wearing the Afro wig they'd used for their previous incarnation. Fortunately, they had the sense to not use their usual routine of threatening to cut anybody (oh, how funny it is to hear that) who didn't laugh.

Most don't do much in the way of speaking. Except when arguing backstage - they all seemed very damaged or vulnerable in one way or another, most were lesbian but not comfortable with being seen as 'butch'. The most notable one was playing a King dressing as a Queen. Which offended quite a few men. I got the impression what they were wanting was the power of men, not to be them, although I'm sure that some would have considered it a way of exploring transitioning without risking home/job/life.

It was definitely an interesting experience.

For years it bought that Gay men were allies, they had been oppressed too, they had experienced violence from men etc etc. Them calling me names was just them being part of the “sisterhood” wasn’t it?
I was very very wrong. Obviously some gay men aren’t vile misogynists but recently there seems to be a real increase in abuse of women by gay men and I think Drag is part of that. They parody us and exaggerate what they see as our worst features - I hate it

@TheLastSaola

My argument is that it was born from oppression at a time when it was illegal to have gay sex. When men were ostracised, beaten and criminalised for being gay.

If you want to say it should no longer be allowed because it is too misogynistic - then that is fine and an argument you can make.

But it isn't comparable to black face because the criticism of black face is specifically about its origins..

And you do have to at least acknowledge the historical origins of drag before you can remove it - otherwise, sorry, but I think criticism too often verges on homophobia.

I agree with you about drag's origins. Back in the day, good drag genuinely subverted gender stereotypes. Men who used drag were men who were told by society that they were worthless because they were gay, or effete.

But modern drag is all about punching down. It is powerful men flaunting hateful parodies of women in our faces, knowing there is nothing we can do to stop them.

I have been to see drag shows, and have come across none of the vile content as described..maybe I have just been lucky!

@MyfanwyMontez

If I call French and Saunders used to dress up as men on a number of occasions in their series.

Men are not the oppressed group.

I despise drag, I always found it offensive and rude and disgusting the way women are referred to as fish etc..
I never felt drag queens were laughing with us, it always felt they were laughing at us. It’s very clear from this thread that many many women find it offensive and for that reason it should end. Women are the only ones whose voice counts here because it is us that are the targets of this and it is us that they are mocking.
If a woman dressed up as a gay man and made vile references to gay sex it would rightly be considered homophobic, it’s no different. Women have been the oppressed gender for years and men have always had the power in history.
It’s mysogynistic bollocks.

I used to enjoy classic drag - Torch Song queens, that sort of thing. I never found Lilly Savage offensive (not in that way, anyway!) partly because he picks fun at the men as much as women

Older classic drag had a very different subtext - I'm not sure they were trying to 'be' women at all really.

Drag kinds frequented the bars from the 1920s onward I believe. they were often the master of ceremonies or the piano player or the 'toff'.

I think there is a fascinating history there if it could be unpicked.

I find it offensive yes. It's a parody of women wearing tight fitted clothing, loads of make up and being really bitchy and OTT.

But when you have the BBC making shows like hte hideous "drag race" you have no chance.

Not offensive at all, especially if nine year old boys are dressed as strippers and they're twerking their little behinds off.

I never felt drag queens were laughing with us, it always felt they were laughing at us

Exactly.

No!!!! Are you kidding?! Did you miss the memo where it clearly states women are not allowed an opinion, unless it benefits men??? Where have you been, op?

TheLastSaolo trying to pretend Drag Queens are any different to drag acting is just pedantic whataboutery

Drags been around thousands of years, pretending it originated in 1980s New York is ridiculous.

You cant re-write history to fit your narrative.

I know several children who find pantomimes scary...I think it's because of drag.

I did not want to have to explain RuPaul to my ten-year-old special needs DS, who likes to dress up, including as a princess at times. The whole concept is just inappropriate for him, and offensive to me. I kept it firmly switched off and was very annoyed when ads and trailers flashed up while he watched other shows.

YANBU and we know it instinctively from a young age. I'm one of the many women who tried to keep my weight down to hold back puberty. I knew then and I know now that growing from girl to woman is a dangerous transformation.

I would've been all over puberty blockers if they'd been available, and there have been threads on here previously with lots of other women saying the same, or speaking about their fear of growing into a woman.

We can tell from early on that women are mocked and derided, and often physically hurt

Agree OP. Why should women not be offended by comedy drag acts? How is it ok to poke fun at women?

All they have to do though (to get out of it) is say “but I identify as a women.....” and for it to be deemed ok... 🙄🙄

I hate it. I hate the fact that the caricature of women is so utterly different to the behaviour of, you know, actual women.

Call it art, call it entertainment, it is still patronising women.

I'm by no means narrow minded, and I'm no snowflake either, but my take on drag is that it is men, taking the piss out of women for shits and giggles.

We're so fortunate that we can have this discussion here, though I fear that women speaking so freely will be the downfall of MN. It can't be allowed.

So we're allowed to think white men dressing up as a woman from the BAME communities is wrong - because half the BAME community are men and boys. It's ok for white men to impersonate white women, because all white women are women (even those who'd prefer to be something else). And it's ok for black men to impersonate black women because all black women are women (even those who'd prefer to be something else). See, op? There are RULES that must be adhered to.