Are women allowed to be offended by Drag/ women face now then?

[Chosennone]

Things are changing. Strange times. Midst Pandemic. Horrific events in the USA. people are 'waking' up to oppression and inappropriateness within comedy.
If it is no longer seen as acceptable to wear any kind of black costume, seen in LB, LOG, Ant & Dec, surely it is time that a sensible debate could be had on Drag. Is it acceptable? Is it not a mockery of female features for comedy in the same way original blackface was?
If not, why not?

And as for 'it's entertainment'

What makes it entertaining? I mean more than a male comedian or a female one? Or singers and dancers?

What is the added entertainment factor of adding over the top dresses and makeup to a performance?

That is a genuine question. I don't know what the entertainment value is - so I would like someone who finds it entertaining to explain it to me.

how many statues are out there of men who were abusers of women... Quite a lot, I'd hazard. Perhaps their time is over now too?

John Lennon, was a wife beater and emotional abuser.

Charles Dickens, psychological abuser, incredibly cruel to his wife.

George Best, wife beater.

Just some I can think off of the top of my head that I know have statues in the UK. We'd probably be better off walking around Madam Tussauds and toppling all the celebrity abusers who still have careers because the world will forgive a man virtually any crime so long as he is considered to be good at his job.

Kyp100

In what way is it a celebration of womanhood?

I can see it being a celebration of fashion and makeup maybe?

But that does not figure in my own lives experience of womanhood, so what exactly is the celebration?

How on earth are men with huge fake breasts, thick makeup and fake mannerisms a “celebration of women” ?.?

I find that as fucking ridiculous as I would the idea some blackface celebrates black culture.

Offensive comedy can be funny, that doesnt make it acceptable.

@maudspellbody
Might be hard to get a consensus on that one as what people consider entertainment is wide- some like football, some like musics theatre, some like reading a book, some like dancing. Some like all those things and some none of them

As long as we can express ideas and opinions and challenge them hopefully it will be ok?

If anyone actually know what entertainment value is then please do let Disney know first 😅

YANBU that what's good for one protected characteristic is, in theory, good for all. I think tho that it's more directed at cross dressers, not women. Either way, it says more about the people doing it than those to whom it is directed, but I think we all have to try not to be offended about literally everything because freedom of speech will die eventually if we are.

Celebration of womanhood? Anyone who thinks that hasn’t been paying proper attention:

rupaulsdragrace.fandom.com/wiki/RuPaul%27s_Drag_Race_Dictionary

I find that as fucking ridiculous as I would the idea some blackface celebrates black culture.

Yep to that I meant to say

@JaneJeffer - oh thank God I'm not the only person in Ireland who thinks that.

On John Lennon, have a look at the lyrics to "Woman is the n**r of the World" (sorry not sure if we're allowed to write that word on MN).

Maybe Yoko Ono opened his eyes?

"We insult her every day on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be free"

Those lyrics actually make me cry, I hope they're not upsetting for anyone else

It's not quite the same but if you want to be offended by it I don't see anyone stopping you. If you want to go about organising petitions, gathering evidence and well "starting a movement " then by all means get going.

I've got really mixed feelings.

I love drag but if I think about it it is misogynistic and reductive. I think it was posie parker who said in the Triggernometry interview that men see women as hair makeup and tits and there's a liiiitle bit more to womanhood than that. Drag is nothing much else than hair makeup and tits!

I do see Drag as performance - literally, as per pantomime or parody, not as in trying to pass or seriously trying to"perform womanhood" I don't think it's suitable for children to watch however. It's very very sexual in terms of presentation and in the language used.

Just because I like it doesn't mean it's right... lots to think about!

John Lennon's 'Woman' does not do it for me, because ultimately is all about him/men.

There are two different things here.

1. Tasteful comedy. Things like pantomime, the Two Ronnies, Dame Edna etc. where the jokes avoid vulgarity and crude insults. In the Two Ronnies, many of the musical numbers at the end of the show featured one or both of them dressed as women but that was inconsequential, the humour came from the rewritten lyrics of well known tunes. Nothing over-sexualised. Them dressing up as cleaners or a female Greek and male French singer isn't really any different from when they dress up as Chelsea Pensioners, Welsh engine drivers, or American hippies.

1. The sort of nightclub acts described in other posts. Crude references to anatomy, over-exaggerated body parts and "comedy" which consists more of shock than humour. To be honest, there are plenty of bad comedians around these days who just aren't funny but who instead say shocking stuff and swear a lot for cheap laughs. Plenty of misogyny around in "comedy" these days, not just when the "comedian" wears a dress.

@maudspellbody Not all women are the same.

Having spoken to other women who enjoy drag, I know I'm far from alone in my opinion.

And no, I'm not one of the people screaming TERF at JK!

What do drag kids celebrate?

Desmond is Amazing dancing on a nightclub stage at the age of 11 in the early hours of the morning whilst adult men threw money at him is celebrating what?

Queen Lactatia at the age of 10 being photographed with a naked adult man posing with him is celebrating what?

@Pertella I’m finding it hard to understand what your last comment is about. Please can you explain where that’s from, if it is something that happened or if it’s a hypothetical. Please could you let me know your source, thanks

Ktp100

That is kind of my point, though. Not all women are the same.

In fact, women can be different in a million and one ways.

So what is the celebration of womanhood? Because if it is meant to be that, then it is a celebration of an absolutely tiny part of 'womanhood'

And more than that, it is part of womanhood (makeup, performance, glamour, sexualised bodies) that many women reject as oppressive.

YetAnotherSpartacus I read it as he's saying "we" meaning men, but he's criticising men's behaviour.
"We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen"

DdraigGoch I agree with what youre saying. I think the difference is between men dressing up making jokes, and men dressing up pretending that makes them a woman because women are the joke

If that makes sense!

I’m finding it hard to understand what your last comment is about She is talking about well documented "child drag queens" and the weird, harmful, batshit culture that allows such shit to happen! Drag culture!

Google it. Pertella gave you enough info!

Personally I’m not offended at all by the act of drag BUT after watching ru Paul’s drag race I find the expression “fishy” extremely offensive. It’s used to describe drag artists who look extremely feminine and refers to the fishy odour of a woman’s vagina. This I think is absolutely disgusting and should not be used. I love the show but that expression really makes me feel sick 🤢