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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Pro Women, Not Anti Trans - Why Biology Is Important.

83 replies

IStandWithWomen · 11/06/2020 13:45

This is a very long thread

Many people seem to be question why women are defending themselves against the idea that 'people' have periods rather than women, as is biologically correct. There is a long argument as to what defines a woman in terms of gender, and I'm still to find any of them that equates to an all inclusive term. I have never understood what it means to be a woman, and have yet to find anyone that can eloquently explain what makes us different from men in a non-biological sense.

I would say I've never noticed a difference between women and men, but of course that is untrue. Sadly, the only time I have noticed that I'm different from boys and men is through negative experience. Being told that there was something inherently wrong with me not liking playing with dolls, or always insisting on cutting my hair short, enjoying video games over make up. The name calling starts from a very young age - not a little girl, a tomboy, one of the lads. Get to your teenage years and the questions really begins. Are you a lesbian? Are you actually a boy? Not insults, but a clear message from society that 'you are not what is expected from a woman'. It works both ways - boys who like musicals, Barbies or dresses and makeup must be gay or girly. They cannot just be objects that humans like, they have a gender or sexuality and therefore that's the box you must fit in.

Older still, and the dark realisation that society thinks they own your female body. 'Cover up' your body? You're a prude, don't you want boys to like you? You're only young once! Show too much skin, what a slut, winding the boys up. Get sexually attacked? You were obviously asking for it. Get pregnant young? Forget about having a life, you are now nothing but a statistic. The man who impregnated you run off? Well what did you expect, he's young and needs to go and establish his life and career. He can always start again later. You're the stupid girl who ruined her life.

Choose not to have kids? You must be a cold hearted monster, all women want babies really! All female celebrities under 50 - 'oh is that weight gain or a bump we see?' screams the tabloids and they photograph them every 5 minutes to find any imperfections. After 50? Look how old they're getting! How much work have they had done? Why do they look their age? It's not OK for a 70 year old woman to look 70, how ugly.

Even day to day we are reminded our bodies and anatomy aren't our own. Another country denying contraception and abortions for women, punishing them for being raped, little girls being mutilated just for the fact they are born biologically female. Another day, another story about a woman being murdered by a man. Her fault, she walked off by herself, she made him angry, she should have known better. I have never met a woman who hasn't been physically or sexually intimidated by a man in her life. Most have many experiences. #MeToo.

This isn't new. The treatment of women as a lesser human has been evident since records exist. It is part of our lore, it's in our religious text. Women belong to men. So we have stood up and said no, our bodies are our own, we have our rights. There is no definition to being a woman other than our biologically sex, which needs to be recognised so we have control over our menstruation, our pregnancies and abortions if we choose to, our rights to say no to sex, no to forced marriage, our right to say 'I dont feel well, and I won't have a doctor dismiss me as hysterical or having typical lady-problems'. Our biology is important, it's our very lives. It's been used to control us and kill us. We have a right to say it belongs to us now.

To be able to define our own biologically sex is fundamental in our fight for equality in this world. It is what has been used to keep us down throughout history, so when people like JK Rowling owns periods as a female function then you don't have the right to shout her down. We have earned our right to say 'this is our anatomy'. When men such as Daniel Radcliffe say 'trans women are women', they are dismissive of trans men who still have and had suffered all of the above as biologically women. When Eddie Redmayne says TWAW, he chooses to forget that a woman risked her life with her female biology to give him children or in fact to give him life. If all trans men are men, then when are men like him going to start dying to give life? We've made no progress, the men who used to deny us equality are now the ones demanding we share our female-ness with them.

I want to live in a world where women, men, trans women and trans men can all live equally without this fighting and demand for biological appropiation. People should be able to live their lives without any risk of threat against the person they are. Instead it has decided into another social war, where again women are again being told to shut up and that our opinions do not matter unless we agree with the masses. We cannot say our bodies are female without being threatened, demeaned, have men apologise on our behalf for our statements.

Am I being unreasonable? Possibly, but I have tried to be on the fence about this matter for years. I can only speak for myself, but the last few days I have been so angry. I have had experiences in my life, sad and terrible ones, that have only happened because I am a woman, that no male could ever understand. To have them denied as a female experience is infuriating and frustrating. Don't tell me to be quiet, don't apologise for me or tell me I'm wrong. You don't own me or my biology.

OP posts:
ZigZagIntoTheBlue · 11/06/2020 13:54

Hear hear! I can't believe that in 2020 we've gone MORE towards pigeon holing people rather than less. In my house my son's like painting their nails and their (ridiculously long due to lockdown) hair has been in bunches a few times. This doesn't make them female, it makes them make with painted nails!

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 11/06/2020 13:56

Hear hear!

grafittiartist · 11/06/2020 13:56

Thank you

BakedCam · 11/06/2020 13:58

Fantastic post.

Northumberlandlass · 11/06/2020 13:58

Thank you. Hear hear!

picklemewalnuts · 11/06/2020 14:05

What kind of idiot brainwashes little boys into believing that they must be a girl because they like pink and glitter? What kind of idiot believes it's better for a boy to become a 'girl with a penis' than to be a boy who likes pink glitter?
FGS!

Jamnotjelly · 11/06/2020 14:13

This is an important post OP. Thank you.

IStandWithWomen · 11/06/2020 14:33

What kind of idiot brainwashes little boys into believing that they must be a girl because they like pink and glitter?

I had an exhausting childhood with a mother who insisted I must be not a proper girl due to everything I mentioned in my op and more. It's so damaging to a child's confidence to hear they are not seen as 'normal' for their sex. Never mind the huge social expectations of being a girl/woman anyway. The fight to be recognised as person without being labelled or put in a 'box' is exhausting, and seemingly unwinnable.

OP posts:
OldQueen1969 · 11/06/2020 14:56

Another here saying great post OP.

When your whole life is governed by your biology and you are restricted because of it, not necessarily because it is restrictive on an individual basis but because society has placed assumptions wholesale on you due to its simple existence, and then to be told that your biology is irrelevant because some people have changed their views and think we should all follow suit, it is a spectacular example of cognitive dissonance.

In fact I would use the word gaslighting and I don't use it lightly.

My female biology is a fact that I live with, I know how it has affected me in every major decision I've made in my life, because society has placed that expectation on me along with a sense of personal responsibility to myself and to others. If you now want me to change my thinking and say I've made too big a deal out of it because my womanhood is no different to anyone's who says they are a woman but does not share my biology I'm going to start getting tetchy, especially when I want to be helpful and understanding via a process of asking questions and am told to just shut up and do as I'm told.

I hate that I feel silenced and disempowered and that my voice and experiences do not matter and I hate that many other women feel the same.

There are so many strands to this particular argument affecting both sides but it is women trying to find compromises who are being told that they must bow to the other side or be cast as bigots on the wrong side of history because only total capitulation will do.

I don't like feeling like a bitter and cynical old hag (am just over 50) but more and more I'm feeling that a woman's place is not only in the wrong, but between a rock and a hard place.

Pepperwort · 11/06/2020 15:05

Well said. Why are we even having to have this argument now?

littlejalapeno · 11/06/2020 15:11

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Nowthereistwo · 11/06/2020 15:14

I 100% agree with you.

GreytExpectations · 11/06/2020 15:17

I think this post should go in the feminism section. It's not really your place to lecture people on what's the "right opinion" because they are allowed to have a different one to yours and all your post does is make it out as if everyone has to agree with you and if they don't they are "wrong"

The way pro woman is discussed on Mumsnet comes across as anti trans in some instances and I think that could be considered.

singingsoprano · 11/06/2020 15:18

Agree with every word here.

GreytExpectations · 11/06/2020 15:18

For the record I agree that just because a boy likes glitter and pink doesn't mean he is a girl.

CaraDune · 11/06/2020 15:26

Ah a "coral this in the feminist section" demand. Funnily enough, having female biology and the way this is used against us affects all of us.

I had an equal pay claim a few years back against my then employer. It arose (cock up, not conspiracy) though the combination of long pay scales, performance-related increments, and women on maternity leave automatically getting "average" marks for their performance. No-one sat down and said "how do we design a sexist system?" They just cobbled something together without enough thought, the end result of which was a pay system which was structurally sexist. Which we had to go to court to challenge. Nearly 50 years after the equal pay act.

Or the women who even today are getting sacked when they get pregnant, because their employer has factored in the unfair dismissal costs as part of the overheads of running the business.

This sort of thing affects all women, not just the women who think of themselves as feminists.

But no, let's bury this in the feminist section because we wouldn't want those pesky women talking about how being female affects their life.

IStandWithWomen · 11/06/2020 15:27

I think this post should go in the feminism section.

I considered it, but considering that this post is mostly in response to the JKR vitrol which has been on a very public forum, why should any rebuttal be put in a quieter section of the Internet?

It's not really your place to lecture people on what's the "right opinion" because they are allowed to have a different one to yours and all your post does is make it out as if everyone has to agree with you and if they don't they are "wrong"

I disagree I'm lecturing people. I stated it's my opinion on why biology needs to be recognised as important, especially female biology. If you disagree, youre more than welcome to explain why, yet another good reason to put it in AIBU.

OP posts:
CaraDune · 11/06/2020 15:28

Cross post with OP. Not sure if that should be a Grin at thinking the same or a Angry at having to spell out why it's important.

GreytExpectations · 11/06/2020 15:28

If you disagree, youre more than welcome to explain why, yet another good reason to put it in AIBU.

Thank you unfortunately this is Mumsnet and you aren't allowed to disagree on the topic of trans rights. I also don't particularly fancy a pile on today.

ChampagneCommunist · 11/06/2020 15:30

Yay! (zat you Joanne?)

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 11/06/2020 15:30

@GreytExpectations

I think this post should go in the feminism section. It's not really your place to lecture people on what's the "right opinion" because they are allowed to have a different one to yours and all your post does is make it out as if everyone has to agree with you and if they don't they are "wrong"

The way pro woman is discussed on Mumsnet comes across as anti trans in some instances and I think that could be considered.

It's not really your place to tell posters on Mumsnet where they should post, unless someone made you thread police.

What precisely has JKR said that might be construed as anti-trans?

littlejalapeno · 11/06/2020 15:32

@Greyt so do you think it is unreasonable?

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but she’s talking about a universal experience of womanhood. Do you have no empathy for what she has described or for women? This is beyond feminism and if you box it as feminism someone will come along and dismiss it as just another trans excluding radical feminist.

I think I have always wanted to say TWAW and TMAM to be kind and inclusive. But after all this debate I think the problem is male violence and male attitudes that make women have to compromise and care give. So I’m more aligning with the idea that Trans mean Trans. I’m an Ally and will protect trans peoples right to safety and to thrive as themselves, but I won’t compromise my own safety or the safety of vulnerable women. I would whole heartedly support a campaign for third spaces so everyone’s needs are met, and actively tackling harmful misogyny that hurts trans people and women alike.

Doyoumind · 11/06/2020 15:33

Ffs Greyt can we not have one thread solely about women, women's biology and women's rights without someone talking about that being anti trans? JFC.

Hear, hear to you, OP.

dadshere · 11/06/2020 15:37

Good post OP. To the person who wants this moved to "feminism". Do one. This isn't some niche thought, it is common sense, backed by millenia of experience and sound biological science! A woman can be slight and willowy or tall and strong or any other combination. Women can like flowers and perfume and pretty dresses, cars, bikes and kickboxing, they can be attracted to men, women, both or neither and still be women. Ditto for men.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 11/06/2020 15:39

Bloody, bloody MARVELLOUS post, @IStandWithWomen!

I believe that the trans movement is deeply regressive because of its reliance on the narrow stereotypes of what girls/women and boys/men actually are. I cannot understand how they present themselves as the progressive ones!

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