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Pro Women, Not Anti Trans - Why Biology Is Important.

83 replies

IStandWithWomen · 11/06/2020 13:45

This is a very long thread

Many people seem to be question why women are defending themselves against the idea that 'people' have periods rather than women, as is biologically correct. There is a long argument as to what defines a woman in terms of gender, and I'm still to find any of them that equates to an all inclusive term. I have never understood what it means to be a woman, and have yet to find anyone that can eloquently explain what makes us different from men in a non-biological sense.

I would say I've never noticed a difference between women and men, but of course that is untrue. Sadly, the only time I have noticed that I'm different from boys and men is through negative experience. Being told that there was something inherently wrong with me not liking playing with dolls, or always insisting on cutting my hair short, enjoying video games over make up. The name calling starts from a very young age - not a little girl, a tomboy, one of the lads. Get to your teenage years and the questions really begins. Are you a lesbian? Are you actually a boy? Not insults, but a clear message from society that 'you are not what is expected from a woman'. It works both ways - boys who like musicals, Barbies or dresses and makeup must be gay or girly. They cannot just be objects that humans like, they have a gender or sexuality and therefore that's the box you must fit in.

Older still, and the dark realisation that society thinks they own your female body. 'Cover up' your body? You're a prude, don't you want boys to like you? You're only young once! Show too much skin, what a slut, winding the boys up. Get sexually attacked? You were obviously asking for it. Get pregnant young? Forget about having a life, you are now nothing but a statistic. The man who impregnated you run off? Well what did you expect, he's young and needs to go and establish his life and career. He can always start again later. You're the stupid girl who ruined her life.

Choose not to have kids? You must be a cold hearted monster, all women want babies really! All female celebrities under 50 - 'oh is that weight gain or a bump we see?' screams the tabloids and they photograph them every 5 minutes to find any imperfections. After 50? Look how old they're getting! How much work have they had done? Why do they look their age? It's not OK for a 70 year old woman to look 70, how ugly.

Even day to day we are reminded our bodies and anatomy aren't our own. Another country denying contraception and abortions for women, punishing them for being raped, little girls being mutilated just for the fact they are born biologically female. Another day, another story about a woman being murdered by a man. Her fault, she walked off by herself, she made him angry, she should have known better. I have never met a woman who hasn't been physically or sexually intimidated by a man in her life. Most have many experiences. #MeToo.

This isn't new. The treatment of women as a lesser human has been evident since records exist. It is part of our lore, it's in our religious text. Women belong to men. So we have stood up and said no, our bodies are our own, we have our rights. There is no definition to being a woman other than our biologically sex, which needs to be recognised so we have control over our menstruation, our pregnancies and abortions if we choose to, our rights to say no to sex, no to forced marriage, our right to say 'I dont feel well, and I won't have a doctor dismiss me as hysterical or having typical lady-problems'. Our biology is important, it's our very lives. It's been used to control us and kill us. We have a right to say it belongs to us now.

To be able to define our own biologically sex is fundamental in our fight for equality in this world. It is what has been used to keep us down throughout history, so when people like JK Rowling owns periods as a female function then you don't have the right to shout her down. We have earned our right to say 'this is our anatomy'. When men such as Daniel Radcliffe say 'trans women are women', they are dismissive of trans men who still have and had suffered all of the above as biologically women. When Eddie Redmayne says TWAW, he chooses to forget that a woman risked her life with her female biology to give him children or in fact to give him life. If all trans men are men, then when are men like him going to start dying to give life? We've made no progress, the men who used to deny us equality are now the ones demanding we share our female-ness with them.

I want to live in a world where women, men, trans women and trans men can all live equally without this fighting and demand for biological appropiation. People should be able to live their lives without any risk of threat against the person they are. Instead it has decided into another social war, where again women are again being told to shut up and that our opinions do not matter unless we agree with the masses. We cannot say our bodies are female without being threatened, demeaned, have men apologise on our behalf for our statements.

Am I being unreasonable? Possibly, but I have tried to be on the fence about this matter for years. I can only speak for myself, but the last few days I have been so angry. I have had experiences in my life, sad and terrible ones, that have only happened because I am a woman, that no male could ever understand. To have them denied as a female experience is infuriating and frustrating. Don't tell me to be quiet, don't apologise for me or tell me I'm wrong. You don't own me or my biology.

OP posts:
GreytExpectations · 11/06/2020 15:41

You can't open the discussion on the issue and then get pissed off when people suggest opinions from the other side. I only ever see posters being belittled and piled on for not agreeing the to mumsnet view of trans rights but you can all carry on rejecting other opinions. I won't disrupt your "discussion"

namesnames · 11/06/2020 15:43

Great post.

littlejalapeno · 11/06/2020 15:44

Ah the classic, “you wouldn’t understand anyway” and a swift exit strategy.

It’s a shame you’re making this trans rights vs women’s rights @greyt . Nobody said it was or needs to be.

Winesalot · 11/06/2020 15:46

Great post to see OP. And I think that Greyt is again censoring women's opinions. Please do not be discouraged IStandWithWomen, No debate and the complete lack of free speech has gone on long enough.

Coka · 11/06/2020 15:47

Women have battles to fight, so do trans women, probably more so. So why do they seem to be the enemy on mumsnet. I dont get it.
What you like and dont like doesn't seem to be relevant to gender identity surely....it has to be more than that.

Sure there will be people who abuse the system but is that not the case with any system. They will be a tiny minority.

I might run away now.

Winesalot · 11/06/2020 15:48

@GreytExpectations

You can't open the discussion on the issue and then get pissed off when people suggest opinions from the other side. I only ever see posters being belittled and piled on for not agreeing the to mumsnet view of trans rights but you can all carry on rejecting other opinions. I won't disrupt your "discussion"
It truly never helps either when you might post your first post in a thread to scold women.
CaraDune · 11/06/2020 15:49

The objections have not been to you taking part in the discussion, Grey. By all means explain why you hold the view that being pro-woman is just a way of covering up being anti-trans.

What for instance is anti-trans about my linking my pay claim to the treatment of women while on maternity leave? I'm talking about biology - I didn't mention trans issues at all, because they weren't the grounds for the equal pay claim, nor would they have been in any way relevant. Maternity was relevant, and was a clear example of discrimination being based in biology, not gender stereotyping.

What we're objecting to is the "move it to feminism." It smacks a bit of the infamous "good day for burying bad news"/ "2 column inches on the bottom half of page 12" approach to discussion.

There's a bit of a feeling that if you (generic you) have something you can't adequately defend or don't want to discuss, but are forced by circumstances to mention (in this case by the fact that as far as I can see every major news outlet in the UK is discussing JK Rowling's rather splendid defence of women's need for biologically based language to discuss what happens to us in the course of our lives) the trick is to hide the issue somewhere people won't see it.

lifeissweet · 11/06/2020 15:53

I get frustrated that this has to be one side against the other. Why is women talking about their womanhood immediately leapt on as transphobic. I didn't see the OP say anything transphobic. She was talking only about what being a woman has been like for her and the things that affect women as a class.

I think it's telling that anyone decides that is an argumentative position. Who, exactly, is she being accused of arguing with?

DadOnIce · 11/06/2020 15:53

I've seen JKR's detractors refer to her 'doubling down', which is infuriating. You misrepresent someone's words, refer to her as something they are not ('transphobic') and expect her just to go, 'oh, all right, then, maybe you're right?' Continuing to debate the issue - by setting it all out clearly, in full, and with more context - is now 'doubling down'? OK Zoomer.

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 11/06/2020 15:53

Great post OP Smile

IStandWithWomen · 11/06/2020 15:58

You can't open the discussion on the issue and then get pissed off when people suggest opinions from the other side.

I'm not pissed off, I haven't actually seen your opinions 'from the other side'. Please feel free to discuss any part of my OP you have thoughts on.

As stated in the title, this is not about being anti-trans but about defending women's rights to their own biology, and using anatomy terms without being at risk of abuse. What we have been though as a sex, surely we are entitled to say 'women have periods' without it causing such a furore as it has? Have we not gone through enough to earn our own biology? Why as soon as we stand up and say 'I am a woman and these things happen to me', society again moves the goalposts of what is acceptable for us to do and say (again)?

OP posts:
Campervan69 · 11/06/2020 15:59

YANBU

Fantastic post OP in agreement with every single word.

How on Earth have we got to this position? It just seems completely bonkers and we just need to start educating the younger generation that this is not the way to deal with gender stereotypes.

almondfinger · 11/06/2020 16:00

Excellent post. I have thought about little else but this issue this week, with mounting frustration.

At no point was anything the OP said transphobic yet along come Greyt who is straight in with the transphobic card and then gone as soon as they are asked to contribute.

If you look at many of the comments made by DR and his ilk and remove trans from the sentence then the exact same is true.

Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people
Women are women, any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of women.

As Fanthorpe so eloquently put it on another thread It's easier to dismantle the reality of biology then Patriarchy

And as another poste( sorry I didn't note) said - the absolute belief that they are more important than the people they identify as being.

I have to keep telling myself that most of what's posted on Twitter is by keyboard warriors and avoid as much as possible. But this is where our young girls and women are getting their news and blindly following influencers who are blindly following someone higher up the food chain. I despair for todays young women who are so quick to sell women's rights down the river so as not to lose their Woke badge.

lifeissweet · 11/06/2020 16:01

I have also seen Paris Lees on Twitter offering to sit down with JK Rowling and some young trans people for a discussion of these issues.

The comments are all about how unsafe that would be for the young people involved. Debate in itself is deemed 'unsafe' now. When did that happen? Is hearing an alternative viewpoint now dangerous? Have they read what JKR wrote and somehow surmised that she would shout hateful things at them and hurt them?

Then people are saying it would be abusive to the young trans people to be around someone who wants to deny their existence. No one is denying ANYONE's existence. Trans women are real. Women are real. They are just different things. If anything, by trying to change our language (cis), if anyone ceases to exist in this discussion, it is women - not trans women, who everyone can see exist. If they didn't we wouldn't be having any conversations about how to rub along well together without anyone having to throw anyone else under a bus.

And that should be the basis of this discussion - how can we exist in the world while all being safe?

Not 'I'm a bit scared that my safety is threatened here'
'TRANSPHOBE!'

Betteb · 11/06/2020 16:02

Hear, hear! Fantastic post

GreytExpectations · 11/06/2020 16:02

By all means explain why you hold the view that being pro-woman is just a way of covering up being anti-trans.

I don't hold that view and never said I did. I said on Mumsnet, in some instances the pro-women views come across as anti-trans. That's different to what you are accusing me of saying.

I've also heard people on mumsnet say that if you are pro-trans than you are anti-women. Do you agree with that?

GreytExpectations · 11/06/2020 16:03

At no point was anything the OP said transphobic yet along come Greyt who is straight in with the transphobic card and then gone as soon as they are asked to contribute.

Nope. Didn't say transphobic at all on this post but nice try twisting my words.

lifeissweet · 11/06/2020 16:08

GreyT - I think the issue is not that being pro-trans is anti-women, unless what is being said is, in itself, anti women.

In the main, women don't care about what trans people want to do with their bodies or their lives. I think most are absolutely happy to live alongside them, have trans friends, be supportive of uniquely trans struggles. JKR said herself that she would march for trans people facing discrimination. I would too. People deserve universal human rights and dignity and respect.

The problem only comes when trans people (and mainly trans activists, which are a different matter altogether) pitch themselves against women by moving into their spaces, sports, awards and anywhere women have fought for at least a century to carve out for themselves.

Any push back from women is seen as aggression. It isn't. It is self defence.

Darnley · 11/06/2020 16:09

Couldn’t agree more OP.

almondfinger · 11/06/2020 16:19

The way pro woman is discussed on Mumsnet comes across as anti trans in some instances and I think that could be considered.

anti-trans/trans phobic. You say potatoes I say tomatoes.

If women dare to discuss the infringement of their rights by as lifeissweet said - mainly trans activists. Then we are deemed to automatically hate all Transfolk. That is not true and trying to get people to understand that is like banging ones head against the wall.

What disgusts me the most is how many of the horrific replies to JKR were along the lines of 'suck my lady dick'. It's a total - get in your box little woman, me and my penis will do what ever the hell we want and and if that includes negating womens rights and reappropriating your sex, tough shit.

lifeissweet · 11/06/2020 16:21

Language is so important here and is where these discussions fall down so often.

You can't talk about women without a definition of what that word means, yet when a simple question like 'what is a woman?' is deemed transphobic, you can go no further.

Likewise transphobia - where does that begin and end? Is it asking questions? Is it describing a personal experience (like the OP has)? Does it have to be outwardly hateful?

What does discrimination mean? Is it stating biological facts? Is it asking questions? Does it have to deny someone their legal rights?

Because those words are bandied around so much and most of the arguments seem to centre on arguing about what is transphobic or not, what is discrimination or not and - what is a woman anyway?

CaraDune · 11/06/2020 16:22

Anyway, back to the OP, which is brilliant by the way.

Here's another women's issue which is to do with biology. Abortion. Women need abortions because biologically women are the ones who get pregnant. One of the very first things Trump did on taking office was to sign off on a bill removing US overseas aid funding from any healthcare charity which provided abortion and contraception advice. Even if they were going to use the money for, say, a child vaccination programme. Or mosquito nets against malaria. They were considered so tainted by association with abortion they couldn't have money for anything.

There's a photo of Trump, smug look on his face, at his desk, signing it off, surrounded by men looking equally smug. It always looks pure Handmaid's Tale to me.

Pro Women, Not Anti Trans - Why Biology Is Important.
lifeissweet · 11/06/2020 16:25

and sorry, OP! I meant to start with saying I entirely agree with you and it was a brilliantly written account of being a woman and what that means - in all its complexity.

It is a dark day when women's experiences of womanhood are deemed trans-exclusionary and need to be defended.

I despair at the moment. I truly do.

lifeissweet · 11/06/2020 16:34

almondfinger - I agree about the 'suck my lady dick' comments. It is such MALE aggression that it's chilling.

I have to say I'm glad they do that and show themselves up in that way, though. If anyone is in doubt as to why women feel threatened, the evidence is plain to see.

CaveMum · 11/06/2020 16:37

Fantastic post OP.