AIBU to stop contact, due to ex not social distancing

[PerspectiveIsAVirtue]

Hi all...

I've been a long time lurker on here, but this is my first post. I have noone to turn to irl, so thank you in advance for taking the time to read through this long post and any advice given.

DD is 9. Ex and I split during the pregnancy and have for the most part managed to remain amicable and only message each other on a "need to know" basis. Pre-lockdown, he would see DD one day a week plus every other weekend. There are no court orders in place.

Fast forward to March and I messaged ex to discuss the imminent lockdown and what our approach would be going forward,. Given the nature of both of our jobs, I suggested that we all isolate for two weeks and then either he was welcome to stay with us for the duration or we would resume normal contact arrangements if that was preferable, assuming we would both be following the government guidelines. He agreed to the isolation, but was not forthcoming with how he would like things to proceed afterwards or whether he would be strictly social distancing, as DD and I have been.

(It's important to note that while none of us have underlying health conditions, I am suffering from extreme anxiety, for which I am actively seeking help for.)

Those initial two weeks came and went and admittedly, I didn't approach ex to review the situation, as I was dealing with the demands of wfh, homeschooling etc. He also did not press the matter and would facetime DD daily.

In time, we began to visit his garden (via a side gate and socially distanced), so DD and ex could spend time together in person.

Sadly, ex's family suffered a loss and he expressed a wish for DD to attend the funeral. I tried to be as supportive as possible, but asked that he respect my wishes to keep DD socially distanced throughout the day. Despite assurances, he did the opposite, driving many miles with DD and members of two other households and DD confirmed that there was no distancing at the wake, which at least six households attended.

Needless to say, I was upset about this, but bit my tongue, as I understood it was an emotional time and hoped it was a one-off.

However, through conversations with ex, it has become apparent that he has not stuck to the guidelines over the last eleven weeks and he has admitted to staying at his mum's and having multiple friends and family over to his house.

He is now insisting that pre-lockdown contact arrangements resume, but refuses to agree to socially distance with or without DD, citing that he doesn't see DD as being at risk and that the guidelines were put in place for "vulnerable people", not us.

His view is that I am damaging DD through my approach to follow the guidelines to the letter and that my "crippling anxiety" and "irrational fears" are going to negatively impact DD in the long run. This is an additional worry on my part, but I am trying my hardest to limit this, by seeking help for my anxiety (have been prescribed medication and am on the waiting list for CBT), forcing myself to take DD out for walks and making sure DD has contact with her friends through facetime/emails, but I do worry about the impact of the last eleven weeks on DD and regularly check in with her. She seems ok.

I lost my mother to something that ultimately could have been avoided when I was a teenager and I believe that a lot of my anxiety stems from this and wanting to keep DD and myself "safe". Although I know statistically that we would most likely only experience mild symptoms, I just don't see the point in testing that theory out if we don't have to. Why chance it?

Ex has gone so far as to arrange a playdate at his for DD this weekend and says that he will do as he sees best when DD is with him.

I accept that ex and I might not always share the same parental views, but AIBU to stop contact for the time being, as he is insistent on breaking the social distancing rules and not putting our DD's health first?

Thank you so much if you made it to the end! Am happy to be told I'm being unreasonable. I know my anxiety may be clouding my judgement and just want to do what is best for DD.

I made a very similar thread recently (under a different username) and got some very nasty replies. I got proper advice and was told that the current government guidelines say that if one parent is sufficiently concerned they can stop contact as long as they offer phone/video contact. Ex then got the police involved who told me that I had to let him take DS, despite acknowledging that it wasn’t actually a police matter and that I was within my rights to follow the guidelines so he is still having contact unfortunately.

@TitianaTitsling I queried it too. It was worded that way and seemed extreme.

Hi OP,
Slightly different situation as both dd and I are clinically vulnerable. But I have prevented contact this week. At the start of lockdown, xH was v v supportive and didn't see the dds except through the window. This obviously couldn't continue so they had been going over to his but with restrictions he had helped come up with. Including not mixing households. Anyway, he broke my trust last week as the DC told me and he didn't deny. He hasn't even tried to get me to change my mind.
The DC aren't too bothered. I think they miss their dad but the fact he has hardly called hasnt gone unnoticed by my eldest.

I'm desparate for a break! But when they are there they don't do their school work and never come home with equipment (bloody glasses). So it's probably for the best at the moment. Depending on how old your dd is, could you sit down and have a conversation about it?

YANBU - the guidelines are there for a reason and although your DD may only have mild symptoms if she caught it. She could easily pass it on to someone who is vulnerable. Looking on here it seems everyone is breaking the guidelines but in RL everyone I know is keeping to them. But I find that there had been extreme views of the virus on here. When lockdown was announced every thread was about following the guidelines even when posters met the exception list. Now it seems to be that every thread is about breaking guidelines and everyone supporting it.

Everyone isn't breaking the guidelines - meeting with different households separately is ok. My exP is breaking them as his girlfriend only comes at weekend and returns to her older dc at home in the week and they are mixing with others from the block of flats but he has 50% of PR so on his conscience be it (and tbh he's probably more likely to become unwell than any of the rest of us due to hugely unhealthy lifestyle)

Ah sorry midnight! Didn't want someone else to be blamed for my point!

You need to weigh up the actual risks to your daughter against the perceived risks to her.

1. Conflict between parents is the biggest cause of negative outcomes for children whose parents are separated. Will the fall out caused by you stopping contact actually harm her more than coronavirus? She is already showing signs of distress. When children see one parent getting upset, anxious, worried and the other doubling down, they will often agree with the upset parent. Not because they don't want to see their other parent but because they feel they feel they will cope better. How much of your anxiety does your daughter see? And how much of this have you discussed with her?

1. Your ex has already been mixing with strangers all day at work and yet you were happy for daughter to maintain contact. Is your issue contact with other people or

A) him not following "rules"
B) him not doing what You want him to?

1. Some schools will be returning soon and some schools have already returned. You will have no idea how many people your child's teacher and friends have been in contact with. Will you stop her from returning to school or will you accept that you can't control every environment your child enters.

1. Don't just stop contact. You have no right to do this just as he has no right to refuse to return your daughter to you. If you have concerns for her safety speak to a solicitor, speak to social services, gather evidence and do it properly. At a time when lockdown is easing I can't see a court ordering no contact to a man you described as a really good dad because he is not isolating to the extent you want him to. Going to court will only serve to create conflict in what sounds like a fairly amicable co-parenting separation. And ultimately that will cause your child problems.

1. None of this is said with judgement. Just to give you some thinking points before you rush into something that has the potential to damage your relationships.

Take some time to discuss lightly and calmly with your daughter best practice - 2m distance at all times, washing hands, hand sanitiser, wearing a mask. She's 9 so she is perfectly capable of responsible socialising. Your job as a parent isn't always to shield your child from every danger but to prepare them for it and 9 is a great age to start doing this.

Good luck.

I think get a free phone call with a solicitor and go from there.

@AmericanAdventure

Great post.

@AmericanAdventure, but at work he should be following safe practices or he would be in bother with his employer.

I really don't think escalating this to solicitors is helpful. As a pp said, tension between parents is more harmful than the risk from Cv at this stage.

@AmericanAdventure

You need to weigh up the actual risks to your daughter against the perceived risks to her.

1. Conflict between parents is the biggest cause of negative outcomes for children whose parents are separated. Will the fall out caused by you stopping contact actually harm her more than coronavirus? She is already showing signs of distress. When children see one parent getting upset, anxious, worried and the other doubling down, they will often agree with the upset parent. Not because they don't want to see their other parent but because they feel they feel they will cope better. How much of your anxiety does your daughter see? And how much of this have you discussed with her?

1. Your ex has already been mixing with strangers all day at work and yet you were happy for daughter to maintain contact. Is your issue contact with other people or

A) him not following "rules"
B) him not doing what You want him to?

1. Some schools will be returning soon and some schools have already returned. You will have no idea how many people your child's teacher and friends have been in contact with. Will you stop her from returning to school or will you accept that you can't control every environment your child enters.

1. Don't just stop contact. You have no right to do this just as he has no right to refuse to return your daughter to you. If you have concerns for her safety speak to a solicitor, speak to social services, gather evidence and do it properly. At a time when lockdown is easing I can't see a court ordering no contact to a man you described as a really good dad because he is not isolating to the extent you want him to. Going to court will only serve to create conflict in what sounds like a fairly amicable co-parenting separation. And ultimately that will cause your child problems.

1. None of this is said with judgement. Just to give you some thinking points before you rush into something that has the potential to damage your relationships.

Take some time to discuss lightly and calmly with your daughter best practice - 2m distance at all times, washing hands, hand sanitiser, wearing a mask. She's 9 so she is perfectly capable of responsible socialising. Your job as a parent isn't always to shield your child from every danger but to prepare them for it and 9 is a great age to start doing this.

Good luck.

Thank you for the non-judgemental reply. These are good questions.

1. I agree in your first point and ex and I are careful to keep disputes strictly over text. Neither of us have expressed our views to DD over contact or any parental disagreements we have, so there is no issue of her feeling the need to pick a side, as it were. In terms of my anxiety, DD has unfortunately seen me cry twice over the last eleven weeks. Both times I told her I was tired and my anxiety has never been mentioned to or in front of her. I have, for her sake, hidden it from her and pushed through so we can go on walks etc. DD has expressed off of her own back that she did not want to see ex whilst he is mixing households. Her only awareness of the guidelines is from the work her school set and the brief discussion we had at the time, reassuring her that we would be fine. I cannot stress this enough, but I have not and would not put my anxieties onto her.

1. To clarify, ex is self-employed. Prior to lockdown he would go to the client, now works remotely. My job was in education, hence the initial agreement for us all to self-isolate at the start. So work is currently a non-issue...My issue comes in the fact that he chooses to invite so many people into his home or else visit them in a completely non-socially distanced way. Eleven households are not mixing at once, but he is regularly mixing with members of eleven households. Thus, increasing his, DD's and my risk.

1. I would have no issue with DD returning to school, if her year group were invited back, as I know there are measures in place, such as keeping them 2m apart and in smaller class sizes. Ex is not staying 2m apart when he is mixing with others, so it's not really a comparison I can make...

1. I absolutely do not want to stop contact. I am just asking him to not mix households indoors and to observe the 2m rule. He is refusing to do both. DD is sensible and has a good understanding of these measures, from the school work she was giving. However she was unable to execute any of them during the day of the funeral, as the adults she was mixing with were doing the opposite. At one point ex told her off for washing her hands, as she was "being rude". I don't want to put her in future scenarios where the adults don't allow her to independently take the steps set out to keep herself and others safe. I am trying to resolve this with ex, rather than just stop contact, but he is not even willing to compromise...

1. Thank you again for being non-judgemental. I genuinely thought this would be a supportive forum to ask for help on, but feel like my anxiety is worse for having read some of the things on here. Ultimately, I am just trying to do what is best for my DD. Keep contact going with her dad, but in a way where she is not mixing with multiple households in a non-socially distanced way...

Excellent post @AmericanAdventure

Thank you for the messages from those in a similar boat. It's a really horrible situation to be in, when you assume wrongly that will be following the same steps to safeguard your child and others...

Thank you also for the suggestions of getting legal advice. I'm trying to avoid that if at all possible. Ex and I have always managed to come to a mutual agreement when it comes to our DD. This is really the first time we are not on the same page. As I said, he is an amazing dad. The fact DD hasn't seen him is as hurtful to me as it is to her and him. Taking my anxiety out of the equation, I don't see how it is responsible to let DD go when he is insisting on mixing with others indoors and for prolonged periods of time. Nobody else I know is doing this and surely if people are sticking to social distancing within work and shop settings, then this is backwards?

I didn't mean to escalate, just to know where you stand in case you reach an impass, as some posters are telling you you can't legally stop contact. As well meaning as we all are, it is up to you!

The mixing would be no different than if she were attending school or being cared for while parents work. Let the child see her dad

@Waveysnail
I have to respectfully disagree with you here. At DD's school, at least, they have put in strict measures for the Yr1 and Yr6 children that have returned. Everyone is 2m apart, with windows and doors open, children can only touch their own equipment, regular hand-washing etc.

I would feel so much better with DD entering that environment than ex's where he allowed members from other households to lay in her bed.

@Flittingabout
My apologies. I see what you mean now. I'm hoping ex and I can reach a mutual agreement here, but I appreciate you taking the time to signpost me for more official guidance worst way. Thank you.

I know that ultimately it is down to me to decide what is best for DD. Perhaps I made a mistake asking for help on here, or posted in the wrong section or something. I'm just really struggling with the situation as a whole and was hoping for a bit of a handhold. Feel like I got more of a backhand! Still, thank you all for taking the time to read and share your views. It's really the closest I've come to a conversation with someone who isn't DD/ex in a long time.

So I think the key thing that jumps out from your post is that he doesn't listen to her concerns. She is worried about him socialising but he is likely to think this is coming from you. She wants to wash her hands and he tells her not to. I fear that if you advise him on how to more effectively listen to and respect her autonomy, it will not be received well. And it's not a 9 year olds job to get into conflict with an adult about her boundaries if she has already asserted them. Have a look for a Child Inclusive Mediator who may be able to provide your daughter with a safe platform to share her views about how her dad responds to her needs. They wouldn't sit them down together but with her permission could feedback her thoughts and feelings to both of you so you can negotiate without your feelings about each other getting in the way. It might be tricky to find at the moment but I know some services are providing zoom mediation.

Also it's absolutely OK for children to see parents crying. It shows that scary, sad feelings are totally normal and gives you the opportunity to model some positive coping techniques. And will encourage them to always be honest about their feelings. I suppose if it happened so often the child became the comforter then there would be issues but you clearly haven't got that kind of relationship.

For anyone who thought I was having a go at them, please know that I wasn't. That's truly not in me.

Again, I appreciate you all taking the time to message and am taking on board your opinions, despite my anxiety.

Tbh this is all getting a little too upsetting for me, with the implications that I am mis-judging DD's feelings and needs, or that I am otherwise setting her up to suffer as I am. I really am doing my best by her.

I'm going to sign off for now and help DD with her school work. Will try to update you when there is something to say and if I can face signing on here again.

Thank you all so very much once more. I hope that you and yours are well. x

And @PerspectiveIsAVirtue, don't take it personally. Mumsnet can sometimes be wonderfully supportive and sometimes makes you wish you'd just kept quiet. Anxiety is horrible and I hope your wait for CBT isn't too long.

I think most posters are being supportive, they just don't agree with the op. Fundamentally, at the core is the OPs feeling that the ex isn't taking the safety measures she deems necessary. As I said upthread, this isn't new ground for many separated parents and you have to accept that, within reason, the other parent has the right to make their own choices.

I agree to a certain extent @HugeAckmansWife, but in her final post she talked about her ex refusing to respect his daughters feelings and behaviours eg. Telling her to stop washing her hands. This if left unspoken will just cause bad feeling in the child and she will more and more want to stay away from him, he will likely dig his heels in, mum will support her child and it will get messier than it needs to be.

Yabvu I think what @Angelonia has said is perfect.

To be fair we only know this from the dds account and it could just be that the dad has said it's not really necessary to do it every five minutes. Clearly mum Is very concerned and may have instilled behaviours in the dd which are OTT by the dad's standards and he is simply saying he doesnt feel its necessary, not actually stopping her from doing it.

You didn't need to mention anxiety for anyone to spot it to be fair.