Please help me understand the transgender issue

[Flippetydip]

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

@Enderthedragon

Of course not. If anything, the idea of transracialism has more of a basis in reality as we all probably have black ancestry if you go back far enough (or ancestry of another race besides white). Which makes a white person being 'black' more biologically plausible than a man being a 'woman'. Look at Pete Wentz, Stephen Graham, Meghan Markle... all biracial people. Its not a massive mind stretch to imagine most white people have some non-white ancestry. Whereas no men have some female DNA (unless intersex obviously).

It's all a bit emperor's New clothes

People commit suicide because of gender dysphoria so I can see why they would consider comments like that transphoboc.

@Enderthedragon

I really recommend reading up on Kenny Ethan Jones for insight into what it’s like to menstruate as a man.

Kenny does not 'menstruate as a man'. Kenny menstruates as a woman who feels more comfortable adhering to the stereotypes of what it is to be 'male', but has also had their healthy breasts cut off and will be on a lifelong medicalised pathway.

Kenny has been quiet on the JK Rowling thing since Daniel Radcliffe completely forgot to mention transmen, despite JK's comments being about menstruation, which only transmen (as opposed to transwomen which DR did mention) do. I wonder if Kenny will come to realise that women can never actually identify into manhood, because, however woke and progressive and inclusive people claim to be, ultimately everyone knows exactly who are the men and who are the women.

THIS!

First thing you need to do if you’re trying to understand this issue in any great depth is not to conflate sex and gender. They are not the same thing and cannot legitimately be used interchangeably in this or any other context. It is a very important distinction and getting that straight will help you immensely in trying to navigate your way into a critical position on this and other relevant issues.

@Mummyoflittledragon well perhaps if you’re struggling for time and unable to concentrate, you would be better off holding fire and saying nothing to me, rather than making accusations and criticising me for statements I’ve never made?

@Frozenfan2019

Sad as that is, it isn't a reason to remove womens' sex based rights. Its verging on emotional blackmail.

Someone on another thread found the link!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Sex is a biological fact indeed! When our bodies are dug up we are identified as male or female.

Trans people believe they ARE a woman or man. It's not a case of appropriation. You have every right not to believe it but why share those views? What harm are they actually doing to you?

(I c'n'p below directly from a public FB post, credit at the end:)

Here is what J.K. Rowling is standing up for when she asserts her right to define her female experience as "woman", her right call herself a woman and know that we all understand what she means, and her right to acknowledge that biological sex is real. She is standing up for:

• Legal right of women and men to freedom of thought, speech and religious freedom.

• Legal right of women to assemble outside the presence of men.

• Legal right of women to organize politically against sex-based oppression by males.

• Legal patient right of dependent females to hospital/facility/bed assignments separate from males.

• Legal right of women to be free from the presence of men in areas of public accommodation where nudity occurs.

• Legal right of dependent females to prefer female providers for their intimate personal care requirements.

• Legal right of women to educational programs created for women outside the presence of men.

• Legal right to accurate representation in sex-based crime statistics.

• Legal human right of female prisoners under state confinement to housed separately from male prisoners.

• Legal right to SexBased athletic programs and sports competition for women and girls.

• Legal Right to accurate data collection of sex-based inequalities in areas where females are underrepresented.

• Legal access to SexBased grants, scholarships, board and trustee designations, representative positions and affirmative programs for women.

• Legal right of women to create reproductive clinics, rape crisis services, support groups or any organisation for females.

• Legal SexBased right to representation in media and all public discourse specific to females.

• Legal right of journalists to report the sex, and history, of subjects.

• Legal SexBased right of lesbians to congregate publicly.

• Legal Right of lesbian-specific organisations and advocacy groups to freedom of association & assembly.

• Legal right of women to free speech related to sex & gender roles.

• Legal right of women to protection from state-enforced sex-roles(appearance/behaviour/thought).

• Legal right of girls to protection from state-enforced sex-roles in public education.

#IStandwithJKRowling #JKRowling #TheTruthIsNotHate #WomensRightsAreWomenRights

From: Vulva Temple of Witchcraft

“Trans women are women, trans men are men” is a nonsense sentence. It's reductive, an oxymoron dressed up as a tautology.

If 'woman' is not definable e.g. as 'xx' or as female with specific objectively observable biological characteristics the meaning of the category is lost.

As a society we either continue to categorise by sex/gender or we don't.

If we retain these categories, there have to be shared and objectively observable characteristics by which we say this person belongs to the category 'woman’and 'man'.

We all know that the shared observable characteristics are biological and not external signifiers like ‘skirt' 'lipstick' 'high heel' or personality traits such as ’giggly' 'submissive' or whatever else is supposedly feminine as obviously not all woman share these markers.

So if there is no objective category left because being a woman is based on a feeling rather than biology, the category ceases to be distinct and useful. Society segregates by sex not because woman wear high heels/are submissive and men don't/aren't (obviously these are stereotype) but because of their reproductive reality.

If people can self identify as 'woman' the word looses it's specific meaning and anyone or anything can be ‘woman’.

The problem is that the majority of people including EW and DR tend to think in basic black and white terms and that social media augments this simplistic and divisive outlook.

JKR is presenting her views in a slightly more complex way e.g. she supports the human rights of trans people but refuses to pretend biological markers (and gender oppression) do not exist. Sadly that level of 'complexity' (it's not really that complex) is lost on too many people.

What’s a big shame is that homo sexuality is completely undermined once you deny people’s biology.

There is a lack of critical thinking and bandwagon jumping in society, which is a real shame when we have so much information available to us. Academia has been promoting social constructivism for decades and students who are not conservative are kind of forced to comply with the simplistic uncritical wokeness that has become so widespread in lefty liberal circles.

The debates we are witnessing in western societies at the moment are polarising and antagonising. It’s really quite worrying.

People commit suicide because of gender dysphoria so I can see why they would consider comments like that transphoboc

People also commit suicide after gender reassignment surgery.

53Wolfgirrl

sad as that is, it isn't a reason to remove womens' sex based rights. Its verging on emotional blackmail

It is a reason to be respectful and not compare it to a fairytale about a deluded emperor

@AMemeByAnyOtherName

I have very similar questions to the OP and I would sincerely love for somebody to explain it to me rationally and help me come to an understanding, because at the moment I often feel divided between complete support for trans issues and some kind of unsettlement from feeling as though my gender is no longer 'valid'.

The thing that recently unnerved me was a thread started here on the Feminism Chat board - Scotland (I believe) have recently updated their legal explanation as to what a woman is, to include trans women. But they haven't done this for men or trans men. That made me feel very uncomfortable.

I asked very similar questions at the time Rachel Dolezeal (sp?) was big in the news - why couldn't she 'identify' as black if a man can identify as a woman? I still wonder this.

I have difficulty believing that an entire huge section of the population is completely unreasonable, I don't think that's the case - I really hope to find more answers and understanding about these issues and come to a place where I can feel both comfortable and protected as a woman, and supportive and sympathetic towards trans people.

You’re going to keep wondering it because your confusion is valid. It just doesn’t make sense does it? I felt the same as you and then watched some Miranda Yardley videos and the whole thing suddenly made perfect sense. It was undeniable.

TatianaBis I was referring specifically to the comment about the emperor's New clothes. I haven't said anything derogatory or belittling about the people you refer to.

Surely people committing suicide for reasons of gender dysphoria or other trans issues isn't enough to hammer the issue home to those with concerns? I find it hard to believe that biological women who feel afraid of having their rights and value removed wouldn't also be at risk of suicide? These are the questions that really confuse me the most.

If it's a case of self identification, surely there are lots of women who would 'self identify' as biological women that don't want to share certain spaces with biological men? Otherwise it feels like we're taking one group's desires more seriously than others.

Surely people committing suicide for reasons of gender dysphoria or other trans issues isn't enough to hammer the issue home to those with concerns?

Trying to control others with threats of suicide is a classic coercion tactic, and one of the most unpleasant.

@Justanotherneighinparadise ah I will look into that then. I'm often afraid to ask because I don't want my ignorance to come across as judgemental. I'm actually very glad this thread was created.

Ideology as it currently stands in respect of sex/gender/no factual absolutes/complete negation of science and reason/every individual’s imagined reality must become literal material reality otherwise it is ‘literal violence’ against that individual (and all arguments in that vein) absolutely is a case of the Emperor’s new clothes.

Sometimes the truth is extremely painful. That is understandable. Unfortunately that doesn’t make it not true. And this is said with huge compassion for those individuals who grapple with such suffering.

She was amazing Meme 😔

I think you understand it perfectly! Now go defend our queen!

I 100% support trans people to present as the 'gender' they choose as people should not be forced into any gender roles. If a biological male wants to present with all the stereotypical feminine markers then they should be able to do this without being discriminated against.

However it's ridiculous to expect that a male body no matter how they present should compete against female bodies in sports for example. It would be unfair.

It would be much easier if we could separate gender and sex for good and say that woman/women refers to gender, man/men refers to gender, female refers to sex, male refers to sex.

Quite. Everything would be much easier if people would stop trying to pretend 'gender' meant the same thing as sex. But thats all coming from one way. Thats transactivists, convincing companies to remove sex entirely from equality pledges and insert 'gender' instead and such. Its horrific really. Yes, sex ad gender are not the same, so why the conitnual fudging of the two? Why does 'gender' matter when it comes to single SEX areas?

AMeme "I'm actually very glad this thread was created."

It's interesting to see how many people are so deeply invested in shutting the topic down with cries of "bigot!" and "transphobe", to prevent people like Meme learning and reading and evaluating. Whereas GC people will explain and debate and discuss with honest brokers all day long.

If the gender extremists had a real argument (beyond an empty slogan and telling us off for being mean to men), you'd think this was the perfect place to air it.

Trying to control others with threats of suicide is a classic coercion tactic, and one of the most unpleasant.

Exactly. I find this argument really odd. People commit suicide for all sorts of distorted reasons. It also risks dressing up suicide as a rationale act.

The oft touted statistics on suicide rates amongst transgender individuals have been widely debunked, the survey they are based upon surveyed a very small number of trans people and even the author I’d the study has said that the statistics are being misinterpreted.

Add to that the fact that The Samaritans state that suicide should never been attributed to just one cause, so it is very dangerous to state that gender dysphoria is a singular cause of suicide.