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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A response to JK Rowling

966 replies

Hjft · 11/06/2020 09:54

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

  • [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]
OP posts:
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Chocolate50 · 13/06/2020 22:03

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NewAccountForCorona · 13/06/2020 22:06

Jaypers Shock

Shouty capitals showing true colours now.

The opinion on FWR is looking increasingly like mainstraim opinion nowadays, judging by twitter ratios and aibu polls.

ShebaShimmyShake · 13/06/2020 22:10

[quote Chocolate50]Again I feel like because I'm not agreeing with jk Rowling & her theories, I'm accused of 'shouting' and 'not listening' or not being able willing or clever enough to present an argument. Isn't this the exact type of discourse that women are accused of when men want them to shut up?

One poster has gone to extreme lengths and actually gone through my old posts to dish dirt. What is the matter with you. You know who you are!

No-one is shouting. But she's again getting a proper roasting here:.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_d6I76Sscw&feature=youtu.be#menu[/quote]
No, it's because several people have asked you simple questions or brought information to your attention, and you're refusing to answer. You realise what this does to your position, such as it is, right? Do you really think you can avoid all the questions and all the arguments, accuse us of rubbish that isn't true, and we won't realise? What exactly do you think you're achieving with this approach?

Fifth attempt. Trans activists would have the law changed to make natal males into legal females simply by claiming to be women, no other process required. Do you, or do you not, support such a change?

ShebaShimmyShake · 13/06/2020 22:12

I have no idea why that YouTube link embedded at the end of my post, but it actually looks quite fitting for the level of debate we are getting from the quoted poster. I'm this close to just mooning the screen myself.

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 13/06/2020 22:15

I am not looking at that YouTube video

It does not look very nice

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/06/2020 22:17

I'm not sure why anyone would think that a video featuring an anime girl's arse spreadeagled and a beardy geek would be just the thing to convince a virtual room full of women.

Chocolate50 · 13/06/2020 22:18

@ShebaShimmyShake do you believe that by you shouting questions at me that I'm compelled somehow to answer to you? Why? I'm feeling like you're trying to pin me down, bully & push ne into a position. I've already answered enough I think. If you want a full blown argument with someone head over to another forum.
It should be fine for someone to post a link on here, such as I did, explaining an alternative view, but not want to engage in personal opinion, just because you demand this.
This is a discussion board not somewhere where you should feel able to push people about for positions that they don't want to, feel able to or simply don't wish to engage with. And this could be for a number of reasons. Maybe it is too difficult a question as you say. So what??
You going to start trying to ridicule too now?? You know that does not feel progressive or even challenging, it feels oppressive.

So for the last time. No.

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 13/06/2020 22:18

Im convinced I’m not gonna watch it

But thats about it

ShebaShimmyShake · 13/06/2020 22:21

[quote Chocolate50]@ShebaShimmyShake do you believe that by you shouting questions at me that I'm compelled somehow to answer to you? Why? I'm feeling like you're trying to pin me down, bully & push ne into a position. I've already answered enough I think. If you want a full blown argument with someone head over to another forum.
It should be fine for someone to post a link on here, such as I did, explaining an alternative view, but not want to engage in personal opinion, just because you demand this.
This is a discussion board not somewhere where you should feel able to push people about for positions that they don't want to, feel able to or simply don't wish to engage with. And this could be for a number of reasons. Maybe it is too difficult a question as you say. So what??
You going to start trying to ridicule too now?? You know that does not feel progressive or even challenging, it feels oppressive.

So for the last time. No.[/quote]
Sixth attempt. Trans activists would have the law changed to make natal males into legal females simply by claiming to be women, no other process required. Do you, or do you not, support such a change?

bishopgiggles · 13/06/2020 22:25

Drawing a line under this. Chocolate has hijacked the thread started by a self-declared trans woman (they think) and hasn't put forward a coherent position. People have asked for clarification and she is unable to provide it. It's "fine" to ramble, insult, repeatedly make false assertions, say you don't wish to have your wrong information corrected, make statements that would be perceived as transphobic by some and make patently unfounded accusations - just don't then expect your views (I'm not even sure what they are, they're mainly a jumble of words) to garner any respect.

Go well.

Chocolate50 · 13/06/2020 22:25

I'm actually not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm not sure why anyone would think that actually.
Got to love a bit of roasting though.

Nothing wrong with owning a different perspective. Last time I looked you could do this and not even have to back it up with full essays, opinions and answering a full résumé.

BigGee · 13/06/2020 22:25

Darvo. Anyone else smell darvo?

ShebaShimmyShake · 13/06/2020 22:25

Ah, sorry, I see you did answer. I wasn't prepared to scroll through yet more layers of irrelevant deflecting blabber, didn't realise that this would be the one time you'd finally answer the question at the end.

There. That wasn't so bad, was it? So, given that this is the crux of the matter for most women...well, I was going to ask precisely what you're trying to lecture us about if you do actually agree, but it took half a day and five attempts to get you to answer the last question, and that was literally a yes or no. If I try again I'll be here all night. So do contact your MP to oppose self ID, won't you? I'd hate to think how you feel if it came in (and it probably will) and you did nothing about it. This thread shows how passionate you are about the issue.

Chocolate50 · 13/06/2020 22:28

@bishopgiggles interesting.

NewAccountForCorona · 13/06/2020 22:29

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TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/06/2020 22:31

I love the smell of Darvo in the morning! And at all other times too, because they're nothing if not determined.

BigGee · 13/06/2020 22:33

I wonder if we could persuade Yankee candles to make a darvo scented one? Oooh oooh how about darvo scented loo cleaner? Now that would be pure class.

Chocolate50 · 13/06/2020 22:36

@sherbashimmy what are you saying now? So maybe you've just noticed a few pages back that I answered one of your many questions?
No need to be bitchy it really is unhelpful. What has happened with you is that you've slipped into getting personal & rude during your writing, this has the impact of deterring from any question you have posed. It puts people's backs up. So you will meet with resistance whenever you take that approach.
Just sayin.

Winesalot · 13/06/2020 22:36

This looks interesting!!

twitter.com/bbchelena/status/1271909774171439104?s=21

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/06/2020 22:37

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Winesalot · 13/06/2020 22:39

Sorry that twitter link above is to the Sunday times front page image.

Is the Sunday times saying that they are announcing protections to single sex spaces from Boris ?!!!!

Is this real?

Chocolate50 · 13/06/2020 22:40

Come on guys Darvo?? Really? Please do grow up.
You know writing that on a forum such as this is abusive in itself. Take a look at yourselves.

Chocolate50 · 13/06/2020 22:40

*reported

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/06/2020 22:41

I can't figure out how to make the image big enough to read the small print. Anyone on a tablet?

TyroSaysMeow · 13/06/2020 22:42
Hmm

Well, it's lovely to know that Chocolate believes TWAW strongly enough to shout at us all about it.

I presume she's actually read JKR's statement, and so is aware of the 4400% rise in girls presenting at gender clinics.

I wonder, has she managed to connect the dots yet?

When you sever the link between "woman" and female biology, and redefine "woman" as a set of stereotypes or a feeling or an inner essence or whatever, and insist that being a woman has nothing to do with your body, you are exacerbating girls' dysphoria.

The fact that this is done for the sole purpose of alleviating boys' dysphoria is all the evidence needed that we still live in a male-supremacist society.