A response to JK Rowling

[Hjft]

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

• [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]

So what you are saying is that the majority of even some trans people will go through process of hormone treatment, or even surgery - messing with their bodies irreversibly (physically as well as hormonally therefore emotionally) just so that they can get arrested or moved to a prison where they can assault women? Are you seriously suggesting this

Where do I say I even hint that I am taking about the majority of transpeople?

As a side, have you seen there is a number of men who are reported to have transitionsed after they started their incarceration and are requesting to be moved.

The main point though is do you really believe that predators believe they will be caught?? that they go through these processes with the view of ever being caught for abusing?

Additionally, if you have read much about some people who define themselves as trans are fetishists I think the excitement of their going through the excitement is no barrier (I don’t believe I can mention the name on hear).

And I don’t believe this is the ’majority’.

I would have thought it was clear that we are usually speaking about men who will go through the process, rather than transwomen in general. Maybe you don't understand that the push is for ‘streamlining’ the system for self id to come in and simplify and reduce the time for getting the certification? Do you know about the latest guidance released by the Scottish government regarding gender balanced board?

What's interesting here is that I'm sure I'm not the only person finding the repeated handwaving away of our concerns very "hostile" indeed, but apparently that's meant to be fine and we're being very aggressive by pointing it out. Whereas removing women's right to single sex spaces is not aggressive at all, nope, an act of pure gentle kindness that is.

@Chocolate50 please don't shout.

All I'm getting from this now is a refusal to acknowledge or engage with the real issues female people are illustrating to you, while making strong hints of how horrible they are for talking about those issues and they wouldn't be allowed to do it in a place more civilised than MN. Not doing much in the way of an argument.

I get and respect that you see male born people as women if they identify as women, and that as women they must be included in all women's spaces. However you do at times acknowledge that there is a crucial difference as you refer to 'other women' by which you mean female people.

I and many other females perceive male born people as male born people who identify as transwomen. There will never be a point at which a belief comes that someone male is anything but male, or that male anatomy and presence is somehow different to experience in your space based on the identity that male person names for themselves. I believe females and their needs matter as much as TW's needs, and I believe that it cannot be a solution to give privileges to TW - and they are privileges, not rights - by taking away actual rights from female people and expecting them to suck up the exclusion and disadvantage that results.

By your argument, I infer that you appear to see the collateral damage, exclusion and loss to females and their rights as a fair enough compensation for male people for which you have so much compassion. You appear to see that as fair, and a responsibility that female people should take up. I'm afraid I continue to perceive this as a belief that male people matter more and are more human than female people. Which is misogyny, not equality, and not something I will support.

Actually, this is great. Everytime we have someone who does just deflect and ignore, more explanations with good links etc are provided for any people not on the thread but looking for information. Yes, it feels a little like going around in circles but it is really educational.

Still think it's quite extreme to change gender (& I'm talking about dressing up as woman etc) in theory that could happen anyway without change in law couldn't it? A man could dress as woman & enter toilet.

Up until very recently women would have been able to challenge any man who entered a women's space "dressed as a woman". Now many institutions have rewritten their policies to say that if a woman does so it is she, not the male person, who should be removed from that space, and there is a strong push to make it illegal to ask for any proof that the individual is a transwoman. So in reality women have lost our ability to object if random males enter our spaces, and the pages worth of poorly informed waffling from you, Chocolate, are part of what's allowed that change to happen and will, if not challenged by other women, ensure that it continues to happen.

If you think that's hostile, well, so is removing my ability to object to random males walking into spaces where I'm naked and vulnerable. You are not the only person whose feelings matter.

Wow. @bishopgiggles way to get someone on board with you. Seems like you are trying to draw argument actually. Or provoke response.
It's 'but why are you not able or want to prove your view?' BUT PLEASE!! Posted full study on Rowling's I'll evidenced views.
Then it's 'but we are right! We read the newspapers!' ah yes, current policy is going to be all about who is able to piss in a toilet what with all of the covid-19 & race issues we're having.
Then it's name calling. Please. Just please.

A simple set of questions still unanswered

PMK to read the definition of a gender transition

• in popular perception
• under the current law
• under the Canada style proposed law

Chocolate Just out of interest, does your son have siblings?

Hmm and I've used plenty of mixed changing rooms & toilets. I can tell you this for nothing. It's the men that look very fucking awkward. Not the women, the men, one I saw once came in, turned straight around & walked straight back out. That awkward. Many if not all, except maybe men from abroad

So you think we should make those men feel even more awkward by ensuring that all changing rooms and toilets are mixed sex? I realize that you think you're proving "men are sweet and harmless" or something like that, but what you've actually just demonstrated is that people, including non predatory male people, generally don't like and don't want mixed sex changing rooms and toilets.

@bishops why? Many actually & none apart from him trans if interested.

I'm aware that there is more than a few types of gender choice.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
Em no I'm saying nothing of sort. Just an observation. Stop putting words in mouth, or imagining what I mean! It demonstrates woeful lack of understanding!

Third spaces - good or bad?

It does sound awfully like you don’t have a problem with those poor men feeling awkward chocolate

Chocolate. For the fourth time. Trans activists would have the law changed to enable natal males to become legal females in all regards simply by declaring themselves to be women, no further process necessary. Do you, or do you not, support such a change?

Good i think big

Male, female and multi sex...and by the sounds of Some posters on here multi sex would be heaving

I’ll go anywhere the queues are shorter

Those poor men feel awkward because they realise women's dignity is at stake. It's not rocket science.

I think good too Rufus. That's the third, maybe fourth time I've asked and Chocolate has yet to answer. Perhaps its too difficult a question.

Once again, as a lurker, I'm struck by the quality of the arguments presented here.

& thanks to the women of FWR.

Men have dignity and privacy concerns too. My sons and husband would be mortified if they were taking their kit off and a woman walked in.

DH had to go for a urology assessment last year. He specifically requested a male doctor. He would have been very very uncomfortable having the same examination and conversation with a female doctor.

Probably big

Chocolate I'm curious from some of the things you've written - do you think there should be separate men and women's prisons or not (simply one unisex prison)?

Indeed. Single sex spaces are the preference of the vast majority of people. For those for whom for whatever reason that isn't idea a third space is the obvious solution. Which does rather lead one to wonder why so many trans activists reject it out of hand (or just duck the question).

Ideal, rather.