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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A response to JK Rowling

966 replies

Hjft · 11/06/2020 09:54

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

  • [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]
OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2020 00:55

My personal concern is that a significant amount male people get a sexual thrill out of intimidating, shocking or making female people uncomfortable.

And mine. This is a large part of why my answer is no. And when males keep pushing when women don't want them there, is just more of a red flag.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2020 01:06

We have had Sal Brinton say that they would be completely satisfied that if all a women's shortlist were TW, equality has been served.

Not even just that. She said, at a parliamentary event to encourage young women to get involved in politics (Ask Her To Stand) that a Parliament made up of 50% men and 50% MTF trans people would be perfectly acceptable. That would mean not one female representative in Parliament.

Alleycat1 · 17/06/2020 09:11

I have an acquaintance who was born a man but now lives as a woman with a female partner and who has had surgery and extensive hormone therapy. Still looks like a man and obviously still thinks like one as became very close to a friend's wife and was heard to comment "God, I'd do her if I still had all my equipment!" How much more likely for a man who has had no surgery or treatment to feel like this and maybe act on it? I feel very strongly that female spaces should be kept for women who do not and never have had a penis. This does not mean that I do not feel a great deal of sympathy for either sex who feels he/she is in the wrong body.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 17/06/2020 11:03

Another response to JKR here - medium.com/@RJameson/a-reply-to-j-k-rowlings-sex-and-gender-statement-f6655f307995
It's a faux-friendly exposition of how JKR is "confused" and "wrong", while expressing apparent sympathy for the abuse she suffered.
It's patronising, condescending crap.

SpocksEyebrows · 17/06/2020 11:08

The only climax they are going to get from that list is a massive anti-climax.

CatandtheFiddle · 17/06/2020 11:42

Yikes! @ThumbWitchesAbroad

And like @bishopgiggles I assumed this was written by a male "incel" with a simmering anger at what he perceives to be women's "better" lives.

TyroSaysMeow · 17/06/2020 12:02

Number 1 on that list just screams of the fetish that dare not speak its name, doesn't it?

Do straight blokes really think female-attracted women are actually sexually attracted to our own bodies?

FFSFFSFFS · 17/06/2020 12:04

Well I think that medium article pretty clearly confirms its a Men Rights Movement - the point is that its sexist for males to be denied access to female only spaces.

Bleugh.

TorkTorkBam · 17/06/2020 13:13

I do love Robert/Roberta's own summary at the end of his/her Medium article:

If someone identifies as a woman and wishes to use women-only facilities, then, in the absence of any additional information, you have no good reason to be fearful or suspicious of them. And if you are, that’s just your prejudices getting the better of you.

The stats on violence perpetrated upon women by men suggests otherwise Robert/Roberta.

On days when Robert is Roberta he wants women to play along silently and if they won't that must be because the woman is wrong headed about Roberta.

Male entitlement plain as day.

CatandtheFiddle · 17/06/2020 13:30

But it’s even more arrogant than that:

When someone born as a male decides they want to identify as a woman and use women-only facilities, there is probably no good reason for you or any other female to be alarmed by this. The alarm you may feel in such circumstances is unnecessary and unhelpful.

When a MAN decides ... a woman’s “alarm” is “unnecessary”

?????

It’s a bit rapey, isn’t it?

TyroSaysMeow · 17/06/2020 13:33

If someone identifies as a woman and wishes to use women-only facilities, then, in the absence of any additional information, you have no good reason to be fearful or suspicious of them

An obviously-male body is all the additional information we need to be as fearful or suspicious of them as we'd be of any other male.

Michelleoftheresistance · 17/06/2020 17:15

When someone born as a male decides they want to identify as a woman and use women-only facilities, there is probably no good reason for you or any other female to be alarmed by this. The alarm you may feel in such circumstances is unnecessary and unhelpful.

Grin

Your purpose in life girls, is to organise your emotions and instincts and needs and culture and faith - in fact your entire self - around this male person's wishes. Smile! You have a vagina, obviously you just need to do what he says like a good support human.

I wonder if anything ever crosses that individual's mind that isn't all about them?

ShebaShimmyShake · 17/06/2020 17:18

I'm so sick of women being harassed and attacked all the time, and then blamed for being wary of men.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 19/06/2020 04:20

"To be the movement it needs and wants to be, transgender must find a way of standing on the shoulders of feminism and the entirety of the human rights movement without anger or anguish, but with the common experience of knowing what it is to be the other."

Yeah - it's trying very hard to stand on the shoulders of feminism, and the head, and basically trample all over it in the process.

bishopgiggles · 19/06/2020 11:02

This was discussed earlier in the thread, but there was a Twitter thread claiming to oh-so-even-handedly pick apart JK's statement, which started off with several factually incorrect statements itself (The Andrew James Carter thread).

There was a Medium post linked above, 'part 1' which pointed out these inaccuracies and terrible arguments - I've now found parts 2 to 4 are up there too. Worth a read if you want to see how the arguments play out in this discussion.

medium.com/@dave_45588/response-to-andrew-carter-re-j-k-rowling-pt-2-556d9b9113b1

BigGee · 19/06/2020 11:42

Stand on feminisms shoulders? More like stomp on its head and shove something unmentionable into our mouths at the same time, and expect us to gasp our thanks in amazement and gratitude at their femininity and how they've shown us the error of our ways.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 19/06/2020 11:46

Useful article written by a lesbian woman (can't believe I actually felt the need to write "woman" at the end of that, but I did, for clarity!)
glinner.co.uk/the-disappeared-3/

BatShite · 19/06/2020 16:57

dobbleby

Its not the worst one but nowhere near the best.

This bit seriously pissed me offthough

Daniel Radcliffe and J.K. Rowling also made each other the household names we know today.

Erm no, sorry Daniel had nowt to do with JK being famous, tbh. Other way round, sure.

Article comes across to me as 'JK is very wrong, but she should be willing to be educated!'

BatShite · 19/06/2020 16:59

Rereading it, it seems more on JKs side..yeah. Skim read mostly and this bit stood out to me most

'The transgender movement is a very big step along for the human rights movement. Many activists struggle with it, such as Germaine Greer and Rowling. '

Kind of came across as..Germaine and JK are wrong, and want to remove human rights.

dobbleby · 19/06/2020 18:31

@BatShite Sorry I probably should have explained that I thought it was a good response to help the "woke" folks understand why JKR isn't the devil incarnate. Does that make sense?

dobbleby · 19/06/2020 18:32

Had to wade through dozens of articles condemning her which was a joke.

BatShite · 19/06/2020 18:46

Yeah I know exactly what you mean..its not as bad as I thought it was when I reread properly. With the woke folk though, it doesn't really matter whats said, just the fact that she said something slightly differing from the TRA line is a huge issue. Hell, look at how transsexuals who acknowledge sex are treat by them when they are tras themselves! She could have written a Harry Potter sized book praising trans people, yet mentioning she believes in sex makes her a horrid bigot whos books should obviously be burned and she should be forever ostracized. Have seen a shitload of 'allies' turned on in the past week for being supportive but saying that they understand where shes coming from..suddenly they are just as bad and piled on. Sad state of affairs tbh.

Annoying, the amount of articles totally misrepresenting both what she said, and the actual issues. Ones that frame it as 'JK wants to remove trans peoples human rights the horrible witch!!' type stories. Depressing as fuck.

BatShite · 19/06/2020 18:47

*they are traNs themselves

I have found it quite rare for transsexuals to be TRAs, so had to correct that

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 20/06/2020 02:52

Am really pissed off. The girl who draws the "Background Slytherin" cartoons has posted on her FB feed that she is angry that she's being associated with the TERF JKR, and wants to dissociate from her. She "loves trans" people etc.
I can see she wants to protect her own franchise (that she wouldn't have if it weren't for JKR) but ffs. The responses are full of shit too - even to the extent that "Harry Potter wasn't written by anyone" and that the fanfic and head canons have now taken over, so guess what - now they are LITERALLY trying to erase JK Rowling from her own bloody work! (yes, that is the correct use of the word "literally".) Angry