A response to JK Rowling

[Hjft]

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

• [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]

Sorry that was to @Chocolate50

Chocolate50 appears to be missing the points of debate over and over, needing numerous attempts to be drawn on very simple questions and then arguing that they're either not relevant or she has no opinion on them after all. I'm not sure why anyone would contribute so much in a discussion if that's how they (don't) feel about it.

@backseatcookers

You’ve actually been called transphobic for saying you’d prefer a natal female doctor?!

I just find it mind blowing.

[quote Chocolate50]@TorkTorkBam I'm not going to be drawn into giving an opinion on an imaginary forum.
I've given answer as much as I can at present, given forum is imaginary & would need full consultation.
If you want to draw someone into this type of dialogue suggest you go to Twitter or Tumblr. You'll find lots of willing participants on there. Meantime safe here I guess without too many challenging voices.[/quote]
I am asking you to give me your challenging voice?

I genuinely want to hear how you think it is possible to regard males who claim to be women as exactly the same as females. I was trying to give examples of where it is not feasible, to draw out the nuances in your thought, which are surely there despite your tactic of SHOUTING at us.

Btw, you are on mumsnet. Maybe you are used to people shutting up and sitting down if the speaker gets angry enough. Not here. That will not work here. You will have to show your thinking to change our minds. Your strength of feeling alone is not enough. We are used to dealing with toddlers and teenagers who desperately want to do ill advised things.

"Just like minimising the experience of the many abused people from predators who have jumped through many hoops to get access to victims in the past."
This. So what you are saying is that the majority of even some trans people will go through process of hormone treatment, or even surgery - messing with their bodies irreversibly (physically as well as hormonally therefore emotionally) just so that they can get arrested or moved to a prison where they can assault women? Are you seriously suggesting this? I have heard of this once happening, but not before the authorities got on top of it. If they hadn't surely the question would be, where were the authorities or the gender specialists? An even bigger question is why bother going to all that trouble when an abuser will find ways to abuse without going through a gender transition or changing sex.
I feel like it's really reaching to suggest that this happens often. Abuse of women happens in the majority in their own homes. Right under the noses of professionals and other family members. I feel like the idea that someone would go through the painful & permanent process of altering gender or sex is an extreme example.

Btw, you are on mumsnet. Maybe you are used to people shutting up and sitting down if the speaker gets angry enough. Not here. That will not work here. You will have to show your thinking to change our minds. Your strength of feeling alone is not enough. We are used to dealing with toddlers and teenagers who desperately want to do ill advised things.

^This is why I love this site.

Again, chocolate - what do you think transition is? You seem to think there's some sort of physical change involved like surgery? Hormones?

No - and trans people have repeatedly said it's incredibly transphobic to require this as 'transition'. To be a trans woman is to say that you are a woman. And ask people to say she/her when talking about you instead of he/him. Maybe a name change. That's it.

If you'd answered earlier questions you would have realised that you had it wrong. I asked earlier! We could have had all this sorted out if yo'ud been clear that you had an outdated view!

@Chocolate50

I am not a particularly vunerable female at all . But I still feel I have the right to NOT share toilets or changing rooms with a man?

also I would like to retain the right if I was disabled to chose whether I had a man or woman carrying out my intimate care .

It does not mean I have assumptions , surely that is just me being aware ?

why should I not have that right ? so I would not want a man identifying as a woman contradicting that right ? surely there must be a solution that's suits everybody ? it cant be that difficult ?

That I would be denying a trans female doctor their identity by saying I am only comfortable with a female doctor. Thus literally being told my mental well-being as a woman is less important than that a trans woman.

This is an issue already in some NHS trusts although I believe Baroness Nicholson has had advice that the Equality Act does allow for this. However, the trusts have moved to make changes in line with lobbyists misinterpretation of the act.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patient-branded-transphobic-after-asking-for-female-medic-3jh3snddt

You've also said it's a "permanent" process. You are invalidating the experience of Pips Bunce who changes gender frequently.

@Chocolate50

"Just like minimising the experience of the many abused people from predators who have jumped through many hoops to get access to victims in the past." This. So what you are saying is that the majority of even some trans people will go through process of hormone treatment, or even surgery - messing with their bodies irreversibly (physically as well as hormonally therefore emotionally) just so that they can get arrested or moved to a prison where they can assault women? Are you seriously suggesting this? I have heard of this once happening, but not before the authorities got on top of it. If they hadn't surely the question would be, where were the authorities or the gender specialists? An even bigger question is why bother going to all that trouble when an abuser will find ways to abuse without going through a gender transition or changing sex. I feel like it's really reaching to suggest that this happens often. Abuse of women happens in the majority in their own homes. Right under the noses of professionals and other family members. I feel like the idea that someone would go through the painful & permanent process of altering gender or sex is an extreme example.

I've told you that the entire worry of self-ID, which is what the campaigners are pushing for and exists in Scotland, is that it means offenders WON'T have to do any of this.

But you refuse to give a clear answer on what you think of this. First you kind of implied that you didn't think it was a good idea, then you said you didn't have a view on it?

For someone with no opinions, you sure talk a lot.

@TorkTorkBam please don't try to manipulate me.
I'm not going to be drawn into some argument about javelin throwing.
If you want to judge me on that then go ahead. Judge away.

@Chocolate50

but that is the argument - people do NOT have to go through surgery or hormone treatment - that is the whole crux of the matter .

@ShebaShimmyShake nice.

Mouncey played football with women first, then handball. The photo I posted was from a football game (there are photos of Mouncey looming over the Iranian women's team during an international match too if anyone needs further evidence of how inappropriate them playing against women was).

Currently in UK you do have a gender recognition certificate. That is currently the position.
However theoretically if someone who.looks female enters a toilet, I don't necessarily know if they are male or female do I?
So in practice I guess that a male could do this with or without a law. I'm not sure if this happens often though or its the chosen way to sexually attack someone.
I would be interested in stats - suspect they'd be low as a lot of public toilets are monitored.
Also, as written above but largely ignored, same sex changing room has been present for at least 10 years in our local swimming pool. I didn't think it was even a new thing.
I'm not up on Scottish law. I'm sorry about that. I'm going on current law in UK.

Ah, OK, you haven't been made aware yet of the huge number of abuses so far.

Here you go:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

It's grim.

@HannaYeah

You’ve actually been called transphobic for saying you’d prefer a natal female doctor?!

I just find it mind blowing.

Afraid so. In 'real life' as well as on here before when I posted about my anxiety regarding an upcoming procedure.

One of few times in my life I've felt pretty heartbroken, helpless and had a fucking good cry.

I actually felt unable to fight any more on it that time and delayed my procedure until I felt able to try again and stand up for myself.

@ShebaShimmyShake that's hostile. Why do you feel the need to 'tell me' ? That's very authoritarian I'm not your student & I haven't asked you for information.
See above post ref Scottish laws.

[quote Chocolate50]@ShebaShimmyShake that's hostile. Why do you feel the need to 'tell me' ? That's very authoritarian I'm not your student & I haven't asked you for information.
See above post ref Scottish laws.[/quote]
Stop trying to deflect and answer the question. The trans rights campaigners are calling for natal males to become legal females merely by declaring themselves to be, no further process required. Do you, or do you not, support such a change in law?

THIS THINKING IS FAR FETCHED & WAAAY TOO MANY HOOPS TO JUMP THROUGH IN ORDER TO SECURE OUTCOME

Male predators have chosen careers specifically to make it easier for them to access victims. Other highlights from the "turns out men who want to abuse women really are willing to jump through a whole lot of hoops to do so" file include a man standing for hours in a septic tank so he could get a look at women peeing. And 99% of sexual abusers are male, so yes, making women's spaces mixed sex really will result in those spaces containing a whole lot more sexual abusers, because what's being proposed doesn't involve any hoop more elaborate than saying "I identify as a woman, actually" if challenged. And TRAs are doing their best to ensure that if anyone does challenge the male's presence then it will be she rather than he who's asked to leave.

You might want to do a wee bit more research about what has been happening and what trans activists would like the new rules to be before telling the women who've been watching this all develop in real time for years that we don't know what we're talking about, or that our statements of what has already happened are just opinions.

Chocolate If you're not willing to be corrected when you're arguing with wrong information (and willing to apologise for being transphobic) it does look awfully like you're just here to argue with anything and ignore questions you don't feel like answering (or changing the question that was asked). There used to be a word for this re internet forums.

I can't believe that this person claims to have been a children's social worker, that's incredibly depressing.

I'm suffering deju vu here, anyone else?

Social worker? Chocolate? Good fucking god. Lemme guess. West Yorkshire.

@bishopgiggles son transitioned a couple of years ago. He is adult but lived as male for about 2 years. Interim had a gender certificate, long process, but was on hormones during the period.

Anyone can call themselves he or she but legal position still same about passport as far as I'm aware. Many trans people want the full identity, not just the name.
Still think it's quite extreme to change gender (& I'm talking about dressing up as woman etc) in theory that could happen anyway without change in law couldn't it? A man could dress as woman & enter toilet.
Yes I was referring to gender change rather than sex change as this is a much longer process. But believe that any change should be with advice from specialist.