A response to JK Rowling

[Hjft]

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

• [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]

Not sure how else I can express how disgusted I am at having an energy vampire sucking yet more of my life away explaining things they already know, but are ignoring

If one were to have the empathy that the OP has for women, one might call the opening post a pity party.

Oh woe is me, I - a 50 year old man - feels uncomfortable with myself, so the whole world has to change to accommodate me and make me happy.

I just want to be me, and not to upset others, or get hurt myself. I just want to feel safe.

That's all about you OP.

My goal - I want all girls and women to feel safe, be safe and not get hurt.

I don't want anyone to be upset, but if my goal being achieved means some people are upset then I prioritise safety over hurt feelings.

An example for you. Some women don't just get upset if they are told they cannot request a natal female doctor. They get frightened. I'm a rape victim. Do you see how saying "but most TW arent using the system with bad intentions" erases my right to need privacy and security? I don't just care if they are or aren't a predator, I care that I have the right to not feel frightened and have to relive the pain of my rape because a trans woman's feelings are deemed more important than mine.

Can you see that?

I want to feel safe too.

The murders, by men, of two or three women every fucking week kind of makes it hard for me to feel safe.

If two or three transpeople were murdered by men every week I expect there would be some action, and rightly so. For women? Meh, just women, who cares about them?

I just want to be me, and not to upset others, or get hurt myself. I just want to feel safe.

Nothing wrong with any of that.

You should not suffer discrimination because you don't conform with gender expectations.

Women don't own high heels or lipstick or cake sales.

However, women cannot avoid the reality of periods and pregnancy and menopause and the consequences of being 6 inches shorter and a few stone lighter than most men - even the ones who don't identify as women.

@donquixotedelamancha

Not a TRA. I'm just a person 'born male' who has suffered low self esteem, depression and gender dysphoria for over 50 years. I've had a diagnosis of being transexual for over 6 years but because of my own cowardice and fear of oppression i'm only just able to admit it and let people know.

I didn't say you were. You asked what the initials meant. Incidentally I can tell you are not a TRA because in 5+ years of lurking on here not one of them has replied directly to questions.

I am not a man. I am not a woman. So I must be a TW! Is that what you'd say.

A close family member is a transwoman. In 99.9% of contexts it would never be necessary to refer to that fact;indeed most of the time it would be rude. In discussions of public policy, yes, I would refer to you as a transwoman.

Does that make me your enemy?

My family member has been supported and accepted by her whole family (the only group that didn't are no longer spoken to by everyone). For 25 years she's been absolutely happy with her transition, in all that time I can count on one hand the number of times she's been abused- it's shocking and horrible, from first hand experience, but it was rare. It was always the same thuggish blokes. never feminists.

Recently she's been telling me (lives away now) about a massive increase in abuse, not from the typical men (it's a long time since she didn't pass) but from 'trans' people who seem to have no intent to transition but expect to be treated as the opposite sex and to enter single sex spaces, even if they present as the sex they are. She gets called truscum because she passes and because she's disagreed with a couple of the loonier statements.

I am absolutely not your enemy. I don't think the TRAs are a friend to trans people.

I just don't think self-ID will be a good idea unless the law is radically changed to remove the confusion between sex (the biological concept) and legal gender. I also don't think JK Rowling should be threatened with murder and rape for feeling as I do.

Thank you. 30 years ago when I first asked for help I was laughed at by a medical professional. We didn't have the internet, so I hurried my feelings. Your family member was much braver than I've ever been.

My personal concern is that a significant amount male people get a sexual thrill out of intimidating, shocking or making female people uncomfortable. This is seen in sex crimes, flashing, unsolicited dick pics etc. The act of forcing female people to accept them in their spaces, especially intimate ones makes female people unwilling pawns in some sexual power game. Female people on the whole are good at spotting them (we have had to learn who is a threat to us) and they are generally very different to ‘normal’ trans women who are generally trying to live their lives in a way that feels comfortable for them. How do we report a male person in a female space being ‘creepy’ it’s too subjective. Too much eye contact? Acting in a way to draw attention to themselves? Using body language in a way that feels intimidating?

If I was told that I could not have a female HCP to do my smear or breast exam then I would not have the smear or breast exam. If that were to happen multiple times it would put my health at risk. But hey, it would make it possible for some male humans to "be who they truly are" so it's all good, right?

I do not think that a male HCP is likely to actually do anything specific that's terrible to me in those contexts, but I simply cannot and will not tolerate intimate medical care from a male person, and I've long had the right to request a female one instead. Tran activists are trying to take that right away from me, and are telling me that a male HCP who says they're a woman is the same as a female HCP. That is gaslighting, and it's a form of abuse.

Are you still listening, OP? Can you put the above within the context of what Rowling said and report back to us on if and how that changes how you read what she said?

In normal life, whether someone is biologically male or female is irrelevant for most interactions, but is of major significance to a transperson. It's only becomes a real issue when someone looks like a trans person.

It's relevant in a multitude of situations every moment of the day.
It's relevant sitting on public transport, walking down a deserted street, out jogging, at the gym, in the hairdressers, it's relevant in careers, in meetings, driving on the road, it's relevant at school, at university, on resumes, it's relevant in domestic violence, sexual abuse, stalking, harassment, it's relevant on book covers, in parliament, each month for years on end, in the witness box, at the doctors, in the hospital, on the sports field, cleaning the toilet, in the church, in the synagogue, in the mosque, in every country and every day.

My personal concern is that a significant amount male people get a sexual thrill out of intimidating, shocking or making female people uncomfortable.

This worries me too, and the people who worry me most wouldn't even bother to pretend to be trans women.

I can think of at least two men who have already used their 'non-binary' identity to bully women.

@Hjft

Of course I consider I could be wrong. I am commending JK Rowling of trying to de-escalate the debate so views can be shared and understanding reached.

In normal life, whether someone is biologically male or female is irrelevant for most interactions, but is of major significance to a transperson. It's only becomes a wider issue when someone looks like a trans person.

Females find their sex relevant a lot.

Try reading Invisible Women to get some small sense of it.

Perhaps read some women's Me Too stories.

Have a look at how many women are murdered by men each week vs how many men are murdered by women.

Look at any anti-rape campaign. It is usually around how women should dress, where they should go, when and who with to avoid being raped. The campaign is very rarely telling men not to rape women. I have never seen a campaign telling men how to restrict their behaviours to avoid being seriously badly attacked by women.

For most of our lives every time we have sex we have to consider pregnancy and the impact that would have on our lives. Men can and do walk away very easily in a way women cannot.

Sex matters to women.

I just want to be me, and not to upset others, or get hurt myself. I just want to feel safe.

I'd guess most people want the same thing. I was raped over 20 years ago. I haven't felt safe since. The stupidest things bring it all flooding back...including the Adam's apple of the male doctor who saved the life of dc1. The NHS now recognizes my need for female health care providers for intimate procedures due to what happened to me but that's based entirely on sex (and that particular doctor nearly got my foot through said body part and I tried to kill myself when my son was hours old). I cried when I found out I was carrying a boy, terrified I'd raise a monster. I struggle to sleep without medication. I've had years worth of therapy and I'm still broken.

If self identification is allowed, with all its inherent dangers to safeguarding, abusers will absolutely use this to abuse. It is inevitable.

Absolutely. I once had spend a few hours listening to someone else's rapist brag about the lengths he went to access his victim pool (work related). I 100 percent believe if it suited him, he'd dress himself in fake femininity just like the wolf in sheep's clothing.

In normal life, whether someone is biologically male or female is irrelevant for most interactions
I haven't been able to read the full thread and I do really appreciate your calm tone. I usually respond in kind but I am going to utterly fail now and say are you shitting me?

As a female my biological sex is relevant for nearly every social interaction. Every healthcare, career, family planning, travel, purchase or personal safety decision I make. How I behave in certain situations. Where in my cycle I am. How I feed my children. Rape, pregnancy, discrimination.
I think it's a huge blind spot to put forward the idea only transpeople are acutely aware and suffer from their sex.
It's also not reasonable or possible to decide if someone can access female spaces on their own personal risk of being a predator. My DH is lovely and as far as I can possibly know not a predator. He works with vulnerable children and adults and is DBS checked and safeguarding trained up to the eyeballs. It would be more suitable for him to use the female changing rooms after he takes our child swimming as that's where the changing tables etc are. No one would argue he should be allowed because he personally is unlikely to be a threat or only has good intentions. It's not policeable and not acceptable to any female who would find his presence threatening not just because he could be a predator but because he is male.
I'm sure you would argue but it doesn't pain him to identify as male and use those facilities though...and there we are. What it really comes down to is not whether someone is a predator but where they personally would feel most comfortable.
I really feel for a transwomen who finds peace living as a female facing a restriction on aspects of this, can only imagine how terrifying using male facilities would be in their position and sympathise with the limits to their experience being excluded from female sex spaces puts on them.
But it is necessary to safeguard women. It just is. It's not safe to be able to identify into a female sex space. If it was we wouldn't need those spaces in the first place.
Trans people should be as safe and protected in the world as it is possible to be, and so should every one else.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils

I'm so sorry you, me and so many other women have been through it. And I'm so angry that we are last on the list when it comes to people actually being kind, instead of using it as a soundbite

OP your comment that sex doesn’t matter in everyday situations struck a chord. I have an example of a situation where sex shouldnt matter but it evidently does:

You know she and countless female authors use their initials instead of their first names, so JK Rowling, not Joanne Rowling?

It’s because otherwise she’d be seen as a “Wimmins” author, only writing about thing that interests women. Instead of an author whose sex does not matter.

Men however can call themselves Philip or John or Woody and people think they’re just neutrally writing about the human condition.

So yes sex and being female really does matter

I am not a man. I am not a woman. So I must be a TW!
Is that what you'd say. Does that make me your enemy?

Yes, that's what I'd say.

No, you're not my enemy: I'll buy you a pint when lockdown's over.

You're male though so, in a similar manner to my dad, not welcomed (by me) in female only spaces.

Does that help?

Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse"

I don't think this analogy even works. Harry has just been turned into another boy.

If I was turned into another woman I wouldn't really care. I'm still me, I'll still dress and act the way I want. I wouldn't be that different to aging.

Even if I changed into a man, I'd get used to it. I'd be sad that I'd lose my husband, but we could stay friends.

Most people just arnt that obsessed with their physicality. They just make the best of the body they have and get in with their lives.

”If she can find relief by permanently living in a female role, then they are socially female and the law should protect them”

What is a female role?

”If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection.”

We don’t. The protected characteristic of gender reassignment under the Equality Act does not require a person to have undergone medical intervention. I haven’t seen anyone advocating for gender reassignment to be removed as a protected characteristic or arguing that medical intervention should be a requirement for that protection to be effected.

I’re read quite a few Trans threads On Here and found this one of the more illuminating less fury inducing ones (where are all the TRA’s? too measured for them?) I will try to show it to DD who thinks I am transphobic

I'm trying to think of an interaction in which the other person's sex is genuinely irrelevant and can't think of one. It might not always be a source of fear, but it's never not relevant. Even the most basic social interactions change a little based on sex. When talking to people like OP before (older, transitioning or want to) they seem to think it's only important to them because they want to hear "miss" instead of "sir" or receive the sort of low grade flirting that's often aimed at women during commercial transactions and aren't getting it. Meanwhile women are walking down the street at night watching the approaching person closely, and relaxing when they realize it's a woman, or going in to see to something that's wrong with their car and already knowing before they open the door that they'll be talked down to and there's a good chance the garage will try to rip them off. But also a good chance the person they're working with might flirt a little! Which for the transwoman would be validating.

So what does identifying as a woman mean in terms of day to day interactions? There's something transwomen want out of those interactions, but it has very little to do with women or what we want.

What brings you to Mumsnet OP? Of all the places on the internet you could visit to talk about JKR, you came here.

OP is conflating sex with gender. Women (JKR included) are speaking of their experiences of life as a member of the female sex. We should be free to speak about our experiences in terms of our sex without cries of transphobia. If we can’t name our oppression we can’t eradicate it.

@Hjft

"I am not a man. I am not a woman. So I must be a TW!
Is that what you'd say. Does that make me your enemy?"

Do you mean you have struggled with societal expectations of what is means to be a man? Why can't you be a feminine man? There is nothing wrong with being a feminine man or a masculine woman.

We need to deal with the people in society who make men and women believe it isn't ok to dress how they like and live as they want. You clearly don't believe you are an actual woman and that is what women objection to - men claiming to be women and eroding their sex based rights. But the underlying issue is why is society making people think it isn't ok to be as masculine or as feminine as you like, without sticking a label on you and saying you must be the opposite sex.

ofwarren

I’m new to this argument really, and I just say what I see as I have aspergers . Can I ask what other forms of body dismorphia/dyphoria do we treat in this way? An anorexic for example. Do we affirm to them that yes, they ARE fat and let them attend slimming world meetings? Can someone explain to me why this is any different. Im asking genuinely.
I just cant get my head round the blatant lying. Im sorry if this sounds harsh, but I cant think of any other way to put it.
I find mistruths really really hard to deal with

ofwarren I think I love you. The difference between your view and those of the Desperately Trying To Be Woke is that you’re not trying to impress anyone with your supposed broad-mindedness. You just see the facts, pure and simple.

I often think of the white American woman who identified as black. I think people went along with it for a while and then someone pointed out that the Emperor was indeed naked, and then she was told she was culturally misappropriating black identity.

As women we are having our identity mid-appropriated and we need to keep it.

OP please could you learn the difference between empathise and sympathise? People often use empathise these days when actually they mean sympathise.

I just want to be me, and not to upset others, or get hurt myself. I just want to feel safe

Exactly. Exactly what women want when they ask for penis-free spaces.

'Changing this convention would forcing big burley transmen to use the ladies toilets! Nobody wants that.'

You are confused. Trans women are big and burly. Not trans men. Trans women are male, and males are, on average, half a foot taller and 30 pounds heavier than females. Almost all males can beat up almost all females. This is why we need protections from males.