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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A response to JK Rowling

966 replies

Hjft · 11/06/2020 09:54

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

  • [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]
OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
CaraDune · 11/06/2020 13:07

There's a level of malice there that's hard to miss.

Yup. I do indeed find the level of malice buried subtly within the "choke on my lady dick", "you'll find it hard to stand with JKR when I take out your knees", "die in a grease fire", gifs of baseball bats, baseball bats wrapped with barbed wire coupled with "you deserve to be raped" captions are hard to miss.

Must be my lady-brain picking up the subtle cues... we wimms are allegedly good that way.

ExploringReality · 11/06/2020 13:07

I am lifelong disabled and grew up in an era when men weren’t allowed to do care for women. My right to request women to do the intimate parts of my care is protected by law?

The trans activists are trying to take that away. Why does their right to be accepted take away my right to feel safe?

I’d happily have a man or a trans person do parts of my care. Make my dinner, help me go shopping or do jobs around the house. Probably if I’d got to know them I might let them do some of the more intimate aspects.

But it’s hard to trust a stranger to come into your house for the first time and do tasks when you’re only part dressed. And involve them holding and touching your legs. I can’t move away when they’re doing that task and it’s not unusual for carers not to listen when service users say no. So as a broad brush stroke to help with my safety I need a natal woman to do my care.

AccioWomensRights · 11/06/2020 13:08

I'll leave this here.

A response to JK Rowling
popehilarious · 11/06/2020 13:08

@BigGee

I'm disgusted. Absolutely disgusted. What a waste of my energy.
BigGee that's the kind of thing that will be screen grabbed out of context, you realise...
merrymouse · 11/06/2020 13:09

Do you really believe you are treated the same as a man?

No - I want to be treated the same as a man - anything else is sexism.

Whether I am treated the same as a man is another matter!

bluebluezoo · 11/06/2020 13:10

Ok, so if sex and gender are different, why do trans people need GRC? Why all the fuss about assigning at birth?

Sex is recorded at birth. If someone is recorded as male biological sex, that remains with them.

If gender is fluid, then sex remains constant, gender is whatever stereotype they want to conform to.

So why do trans people insist they are biologically female? Surely they can accept they are male sex, but female gender, or vice versa.

And sex remains the protected characteristic...

donquixotedelamancha · 11/06/2020 13:11

Not a TRA. I'm just a person 'born male' who has suffered low self esteem, depression and gender dysphoria for over 50 years. I've had a diagnosis of being transexual for over 6 years but because of my own cowardice and fear of oppression i'm only just able to admit it and let people know.

I didn't say you were. You asked what the initials meant. Incidentally I can tell you are not a TRA because in 5+ years of lurking on here not one of them has replied directly to questions.

I am not a man. I am not a woman. So I must be a TW! Is that what you'd say.

A close family member is a transwoman. In 99.9% of contexts it would never be necessary to refer to that fact;indeed most of the time it would be rude. In discussions of public policy, yes, I would refer to you as a transwoman.

Does that make me your enemy?

My family member has been supported and accepted by her whole family (the only group that didn't are no longer spoken to by everyone). For 25 years she's been absolutely happy with her transition, in all that time I can count on one hand the number of times she's been abused- it's shocking and horrible, from first hand experience, but it was rare. It was always the same thuggish blokes. never feminists.

Recently she's been telling me (lives away now) about a massive increase in abuse, not from the typical men (it's a long time since she didn't pass) but from 'trans' people who seem to have no intent to transition but expect to be treated as the opposite sex and to enter single sex spaces, even if they present as the sex they are. She gets called truscum because she passes and because she's disagreed with a couple of the loonier statements.

I am absolutely not your enemy. I don't think the TRAs are a friend to trans people.

I just don't think self-ID will be a good idea unless the law is radically changed to remove the confusion between sex (the biological concept) and legal gender. I also don't think JK Rowling should be threatened with murder and rape for feeling as I do.

Crystaltree · 11/06/2020 13:12

"Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse"

I love it when people use fictional characters to 'prove' a point lol. Remember when Luke Skywalker was hiding on the island? Remember when Emma learns her lesson about being mean to old ladies?

IT'S MADE UP!

ForgotAboutThis · 11/06/2020 13:12

I would recommend you read the book 'Invisible Women' , if you believe that sex (whether you are male or female) doesn't affect most people in their day to day interactions.

Nomorepies · 11/06/2020 13:13

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on the poster's request.

CatandtheFiddle · 11/06/2020 13:14

I am not a man. I am not a woman. So I must be a TW!

You are, materially and objectively, a man. If an archaeologist digs up your bones in a 100 years' time, you will be categorised as an adult male = a man.

Whether you want to be masculine is a completely different question.

You can be a gender non-conforming man. Be brave about that - don't appropriate others' identity.

Wear a dress, or women's underwear (that'll be greying cotton big pants, then), but don't pretend you know &anything about what it is to be a woman.

Your posts make it clear you don't sadly ...

BigGee · 11/06/2020 13:16

I guess my post could well be taken out of context, popehilarious. Not sure how else I can express how disgusted I am at having an energy vampire sucking yet more of my life away explaining things they already know, but are ignoring. Having the full story would have allowed me to ignore them. That's what's disgusting me - having my ability to refuse to engage be removed. Sounds familiar, don't it?

Bluewater1 · 11/06/2020 13:16

YANBU

Belleende · 11/06/2020 13:17

I really hope that this opens the door to more civilized debate. It is so so dangerous, in any sphere, to silence people who are individually and as a group affected by proposed changes in legislation.

The original post is also a fantastic example of how the genuine concerns of women are being swept under the carpet. The OP says nothing about the concerns and rights of women, it is entirely based on the feelings and rights of trans people. Women have been told repeatedly and aggressively that our feelings are not valid, instead they are a manifestation of predudice.

Lastly, I don't know how, but decades of learning about safeguarding seems to have been totally disregarded. There is no reason to believe that there is a greater % of trans people who are abusers. Abusers are everywhere, in every walk of life. Abusers are also incredibly adept at finding vulnerable people within vulnerable systems to abuse. Priests and vicars didn't become paedophiles, paedophiles took up a profession that allowed them easy access to victims.

If self identification is allowed, with all its inherent dangers to safeguarding, abusers will absolutely use this to abuse. It is inevitable.

Same as sports cheats, if people pretend to be disabled to get an Olympic medal, they will absolutely abuse self certification and destroy women's sports in the process.

FizzyGreenWater · 11/06/2020 13:18

Yup. I do indeed find the level of malice buried subtly within the "choke on my lady dick", "you'll find it hard to stand with JKR when I take out your knees", "die in a grease fire", gifs of baseball bats, baseball bats wrapped with barbed wire coupled with "you deserve to be raped" captions are hard to miss.

The language of trans rights activists is the language of violent aggressive men.

Every single time.

The irony would be stunning, but instead it's depressing - they don't even feel the need to try and cover their masculinity and misogyny - there's only the slightest pretence that any of what this is about is moving society 'forward'.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 13:21

Whether it's in the "suck my ladydick" sense or in the "sex doesn't matter in most interactions" sense, once again, identifying as a woman often seems to mean not identifying with us at all. What the two perspectives share is the belief that women are support humans, on earth to facilitate the hopes and dreams of male humans, and that if we dare to step out of that role we're being abusive.

Hjft · 11/06/2020 13:22

@JellyFishSquish

OP, it does not make you an enemy. But it explains why I was not understanding your writing or your motives. And you played us a bit, right? You know what a TW and a TRA is but you pretended faux innocence.

This would have gone much better if you were honest.

I genuinely did not know what TW and TRA meant. I am not playing. I want to learn and am learning.

I need to go and do some work, but I'll watch this and the other thread and try and understand.

I just want to be me, and not to upset others, or get hurt myself. I just want to feel safe.

OP posts:
NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 11/06/2020 13:23

We should have empathy all people. All lives matter.

Where's yours for women, OP? Where's yours?

lottiegarbanzo · 11/06/2020 13:23

Because I am female, my ancestors survived because they could spot sex and keep away from the big, hairy fuckers who were coming at the cave and intent on doing them harm.

There is a widespread refusal to deal with this fact among men. In transwomen it's complicated by the belief that they can identify out of the "women are scared of" group into the "fellow woman, no need to fear" group.

A lot of that is irrespective of identity politics. It's straightforward NAMALTing. 'I'm one of the good guys, you don't need to be scared of me. I don't like being lumped in with those bad men who are a threat to women, so I'm going to refuse to discuss any point about women's reactions to men as a class'.

AKA Total lack of empathy, inability and/or unwillingess to attempt to look at things from another person's point of view. (Doing so would cause him to recognise instantly that, to a woman, an unknown man is just that, an unknown man - could be good, bad or indifferent).

Summarised as: Decent men don't walk closely behind lone women on quiet paths. Self-absorbed, self-important men do.

Is that sort of decency and empathy, and its extension to others through reasoned discussion, the sort of conversation you were hoping to achieve OP?

If so, you'd need to be on a predominantly male forum to achieve that.

Michelleoftheresistance · 11/06/2020 13:23

The OP says nothing about the concerns and rights of women, it is entirely based on the feelings and rights of trans people. Women have been told repeatedly and aggressively that our feelings are not valid, instead they are a manifestation of predudice.

In a nutshell.

OP, are you a friend to female people?

Belleende · 11/06/2020 13:25

Yeah it is interesting how all the men that JKR has given a voice has not used it to reject the language and threats used against her. They instead use their voice to try and silence her.

SpocksEyebrows · 11/06/2020 13:25

accepted by society as freely as BAME and Gay people

I find that really insulting and I am neither BAME or Gay.

I think JKR is supportive of Trans Women. Like many others, she just doesn't want their support to come at the expense and misery of other women. They should be able to get on with their lives without impacting ours.

Tavannach · 11/06/2020 13:26

So I diverted to the Break It Down For Me thread. This is helpful:

20/01/2018 22:38 Datun

It might be useful if you just read the posts and try and pick it up as you go along.

It's quite complicated, as you say, with all the acronyms and different strands.

I can help you out broadly.

There are two types of transwomen, according to Blanchards typology.

Homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and autogynephiles (AGP)

Homosexual transsexuals are generally referred to as 'genuine transwomen'. They are attracted to men, usually have gender dysphoria which is a rejection of their masculinity and their male body, and are often fairly benign, just trying to get on with it under the radar.

They are often called Truscum by
autogynephiles.

Autogynephilesq (AGP) are different. They are aroused at the thought of themselves as a woman. It's a sexual fetish. And they are usually attracted to women. They are often late transitioners, are often married and have fathered children.

It's this second cohort who tend to be campaigning for access to women's spaces. They are 'male lesbians', the ones with a lady dick, or female penis, the 'transwomen are women', NoDebate. They are the ones who often say lesbians are transphobic for not dating them, and their penis. See cotton ceiling.

The other complication is this second, more aggressive cohort, are attracting just regular misogynistic men who want to dismantle women's boundaries.

TIM stands for trans identifying male. It's a banned term on mumsnet.

At least 85 percent of transwomen keep their male genitalia. They may take hormones to grow breasts and get a more curvy figure, but usually keep their penis (getting breasts, or shaving jawbones, etc, is still called sex reassignment surgery. It often has absolutely nothing to do with a penis). Of the two cohorts, it's the ones with gender dysphoria who tend to have the most invasive surgery. They would have felt female all their lives and are often effeminate. They 'pass' better.

The second cohort tend to transition late in life, after decades of cross dressing in secret.

They will often have used the narrative of the homosexual transsexuals to legitimise a fetish.

There is a schism in the community, with the first cohort trying to distance themselves from the second cohort, because cross dressing fetishists are giving men with gender dysphoria a 'bad name'.

TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. It's also a banned term here.

It was feminists who saw the misogyny in this ideology first, so that's why it was originally aimed at feminists. But it's now aimed at anyone who disagrees. Often followed by rape threats or die in a fire (DIAF). Men don't tend to get the threats anywhere near as much as the women do.

Gender critical women don't like the ideology for many reasons, but one of them is that reinforces damaging gender stereotypes.

Instead of a man saying I want to wear soft clothes, flick my hair, and act girly, he says in order to do those things he must be a woman. Thereby making those behaviours only things that women do.

It reinforces the gender boxes.

The gender recognition act was written in 2004 to make men able to legally become a woman. To help homosexual transsexuals navigate life easier. Also, at the time, same-sex marriage was illegal, and this was a good workaround. Become a woman, and you have a heterosexual marriage.

Coupled with that, the equalities act says that gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. Again, meant to help men with gender dysphoria.

It has been hijacked by AGPs who are exploiting it. It also means that men are beating women in sport, been transferred to female prisons, and all the other nonsense dreamt up by misogynists who exploit it at every turn.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 13:27

OP keeps saying they're listening, but the tone is still "I'm upset, pity me". No actual acknowledgment of women's concerns, no engagement with points we're making.

Tavannach · 11/06/2020 13:27

inexplicable bold fail in the middle there.

Swipe left for the next trending thread